Mouth too tight on wooden smoother

[Tony Wilkins]

I've never seen one of these planes in actual use, but I've heard of them. That was Larry Williams company.

These planes rely on a tight mouth to mitigate tear out. Larry touted them as the epitome of western plane design. The double iron obsoleted them.

Before you start rasping away at the mouth, I'd check that the iron is sharp and that the cutting bevel is less than 35 degrees. What is the iron bed angle, 45 degrees?

Perhaps you can relieve the corners of the iron a little bit to make things easier and take as fine shavings as you can with the plane as it is and let us know how it is behaving. It probably is obvious to state, but you're limited in the thickness of the shavings you can take by the size of that mouth.

Keep the geometry of the mouth as close to the original as you can. Pay attention to area indicated by the arrow in Mark Hennebury's picture if and when you decide to use a file, like a mill bastard, not a rasp, you want to be slow and deliberate.

It is an Old street. I never try to take thick shavings. It worked great in Kansas but here in dry west Texas I’ve yet to get it to work. I spent a long time once here to get the blade to fit on the bed, slowly filing the width of the blade down. I’ll try the corners before I work on the body. I know the blade is freshly sharpened but I don’t recall what angle I did it at. I bet the plane is bedded at 55*.

[David Carroll]

I have that exact same plane, mine was made when they were Clark & Williams. It is an extremely fine mouth, probably about a 64th-inch. Mine will allow a fine shaving to pass, I keep it for difficult grain because of the high bed angle. When I say fine shaving it's more of the lacy gossamer fluffy type than it is a proper curly shaving.

If you open it up, light strokes with a fine mill file, a few at a time are all you need. I'd shoot for something less than 1/64th inch (about 15 thousandths) that should let a reasonable shaving pass.

DC

[Warren Mickley]

Somebody earlier suggested that the plane may be jamming at the corners of the mouth. You could test that by planing the edge of a board right down the middle of the plane.

I suspect that you are just taking too thick a shaving for the size of the opening. A change in humidity would not change the size of the opening in front of the blade, but it could make things temporarily hard to adjust. I would just keep trying to take a lighter cut.

[Tony Wilkins]

Somebody earlier suggested that the plane may be jamming at the corners of the mouth. You could test that by planing the edge of a board right down the middle of the plane.

I suspect that you are just taking too thick a shaving for the size of the opening. A change in humidity would not change the size of the opening in front of the blade, but it could make things temporarily hard to adjust. I would just keep trying to take a lighter cut.

I’ll certainly try that. It was a sweet working plane in Kansas where we lived by the river there in Leavenworth. I just haven’t gotten it to work since we’ve been back in Texas. Tried to be very careful as I took the blade down to fit back on the bed. Certainly not looking forward to taking any tool to the body n

[Steve Voigt]

Tony, please don't file the mouth. As Warren suggested, rounding the corners of the iron may help a bit.

The other thing is, when's the last time you flattened the bed? If it is not flat, the plane will struggle to take a shaving at all, until you've extended the blade to the point where it will only take a thick shaving. But it can't take a thick shaving because the mouth is too tight, so the problem doesn't resolve.

Install the blade so that it's recessed up into the plane about an eighth of an inch. Seat the wedge as you normally do. Use spray adhesive to attach a piece of 180-220 sandpaper to something flat. Draw pencil lines on the sole at the toe, right in front of and behind the mouth, and at the heel. Abrade the sole on the sandpaper, carefully and without any rocking, until the pencil lines are gone.

In addition to flattening the sole, this process will also open the mouth a bit. The more you abrade the sole, the wider the mouth gets, so don't overdo it.

If you moved from Kansas to Texas and haven't flattened the sole, I guarantee it's not flat.

Let us know how it goes.

[Tom Trees]

I was thinking the same deal, though worth noting fair warning not to remove material from the end of the bed.
Hard to explain without pics, note the little wedge added to the bed to tip the blade a bit steeper, as the business end wasn't sitting
tight (see the gap)
61741-10.JPG

Barking up the wrong tree here thinking this was what was causing the iron to lift
59201-6.JPG
The answer in this case
61743-12.JPG

Just incase this might be why, and not a recommendation, as I only have experience with double iron smoothers,
Though one can certainly see the proof of a tight mouth and the cap iron having influence at the same time
with the wear addressed,
what would be impossible otherwise without doing that mod.
Here you go
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...8#post-1539649

[David Carroll]

Install the blade so that it's recessed up into the plane about an eighth of an inch. Seat the wedge as you normally do. Use spray adhesive to attach a piece of 180-220 sandpaper to something flat. Draw pencil lines on the sole at the toe, right in front of and behind the mouth, and at the heel. Abrade the sole on the sandpaper, carefully and without any rocking, until the pencil lines are gone.

In addition to flattening the sole, this process will also open the mouth a bit. The more you abrade the sole, the wider the mouth gets, so don't overdo it.

Mine has had to be flattened twice since I owned it. Both times it was because my shop was in a garage that wasn't climate controlled and then I moved into a house that was. The first time I flattened it just as you described, but it made the problem worse! The area around the mouth was high and it rocked on the sandpaper so I was really just sanding it convex along the sole. I solved this by putting a machinist's rule along the sole and determining where the high spots were and knocking them down flat first with a very sharp block plane and a card scraper. When it was flat, then I gently rubbed the sole against the paper. Worked pretty well.

I think if the sole were concave, this would not be a problem, because it wouldn't rock as you moved it back and forth.

DC

[Rafael Herrera]

Glue a piece of sandpaper to a piece of wood. Check the sole with a straight edge and remove the high spots. Finish on a flat board.

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, please don't file the mouth. As Warren suggested, rounding the corners of the iron may help a bit.

The other thing is, when's the last time you flattened the bed? If it is not flat, the plane will struggle to take a shaving at all, until you've extended the blade to the point where it will only take a thick shaving. But it can't take a thick shaving because the mouth is too tight, so the problem doesn't resolve.

Install the blade so that it's recessed up into the plane about an eighth of an inch. Seat the wedge as you normally do. Use spray adhesive to attach a piece of 180-220 sandpaper to something flat. Draw pencil lines on the sole at the toe, right in front of and behind the mouth, and at the heel. Abrade the sole on the sandpaper, carefully and without any rocking, until the pencil lines are gone.

In addition to flattening the sole, this process will also open the mouth a bit. The more you abrade the sole, the wider the mouth gets, so don't overdo it.

If you moved from Kansas to Texas and haven't flattened the sole, I guarantee it's not flat.

Let us know how it goes.

As I expected with your knowledge Steve, you are correct. Put it up against my aluminum straightedge and there’s a curve where the middle is high. Here’s where I tried to to show it up against a square…
IMG_7830.jpg
so I want to leave the baked and wedge in but up as I abrade correct?

[Steve Voigt]

IMG_7830.jpg
so I want to leave the baked and wedge in but up as I abrade correct?

Yes. The wedge under tension will minutely affect the shape of the sole, so always flatten the sole--whether with sandpaper or cutting tools--with the blade and wedge installed.

Anytime a wooden plane is not working optimally, the first thing to check is that the iron is sharp, and sharpened correctly (e.g. no wear bevel, etc). The second thing to check is that the sole is flat. Truing the sole is a regular maintenance task that should be done as needed, probably twice a year. It shouldn't take more than a couple minutes once you're used to it.

[Tony Wilkins]

Tried to plane the bottom because I don’t have appropriate sandpaper. I think sandpaper will be better. Suggestions of what to get and where to get it?
IMG_8032.jpg

[Rafael Herrera]

As fine shavings as you can, check regularly with a straight edge. Plane only the high points until you get a flat surface.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, my immediate reaction when you mentioned planing the sole was "don't do this". You are likely to do damage as the amount of wood to remove is minute, and I envisage chattering. If you cannot wait to purchase sandpaper, use a scraper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Tony, my immediate reaction when you mentioned planing the sole was "don't do this". You are likely to do damage as the amount of wood to remove is minute, and I envisage chattering. If you cannot wait to purchase sandpaper, use a scraper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Chatter is why I abandoned the attempt (primarily) after a couple of swipes.

[David Carroll]

What I do on mine is to use an extremely sharp block plane, I use a LN 102, set for a very thin shaving, less than a thousandth. I go across the grain diagonally, not along the grain. Once I get near flat I go with a scraper the rest of the way. Again the plane is only to remove the high spot(s).

I've tried clamping a long plane in a vise like you did, and running the plane over the sole, and got pretty close to the same results. Once the sole is reasonably flat, then onto the sandpaper on a long glass shelf I have covered with 120 grit, but that's mostly to clean up tool marks.

I don't know if it's faulty technique on my part, but as I push the plane along the paper I tend to favor the toe of the plane at the beginning of the stroke and the heel at the end. This imparts a bow along the length of the plane, which is exactly what I am trying to eliminate. I have to consciously remind myself not to do this, and to apply even pressure. So I try to do as little sanding of the bottom as I can get away with.

DC