Locked in whether you like it or not: yet another sharpening thread

[Jim Koepke]

I’m going to continue to do as I was taught. I was just pointing out that some decisions are harder to ‘change your mind’ on, eg Charlesworth method. I can’t remember for sure but did my Lie Nielsen blades come with a microbevel> it’s been quite a while.

Just because a flat bevel works well for me, it doesn't mean it is the best method for your work. To me the biggest advantage of freehand sharpening a flat bevel is when done properly the chisel is almost never in need of a return trip to the grinder. One chisel that is used often came to me with a hollow grind and didn't need a complete reworking of the bevel. For many years it has been a pleasure to sharpen due to the ease of feeling it "click" into place on a stone. After what has likely been about a decade of use and honing, the hollow is almost completely gone.

I do not have a typical bench grinder. For those who do, learn how to use it because a hollow grind is the easiest way to go when freehand honing.

My first experience with a micro bevel was when my Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening System arrived.

Veritas® Mk.II Power Sharpening System.jpg

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...m?item=05M3101

It came with two platters with four grits of PSA backed abrasive sheets, one for each side of a platter. The finer grits are much thinner. Starting at 80 grit and moving up to the finer grits would cause the angle to slightly change when switching to the second platter.

It was a simple matter to insert spacers under the second platter to lift it up to an equal height of the first platter's abrasives. There also are different thicknesses of platters to work through this.

jtk

[David Carroll]

I do not have a typical bench grinder. For those who do, learn how to use it because a hollow grind is the easiest way to go when freehand honing.

My first experience with a micro bevel was when my Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening System arrived.

Veritas® Mk.II Power Sharpening System.jpg

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...m?item=05M3101

It came with two platters with four grits of PSA backed abrasive sheets, one for each side of a platter. The finer grits are much thinner. Starting at 80 grit and moving up to the finer grits would cause the angle to slightly change when switching to the second platter.

It was a simple matter to insert spacers under the second platter to lift it up to an equal height of the first platter's abrasives. There also are different thicknesses of platters to work through this.

jtk

I've always wondered about those sharpeners. The disk is turning at a constant RPM and you are grinding with the blade of the tool resting on the disc basically along the radius, yes? Because, like a drill bit, as the disc is rotating the surface speed of at the outermost edge is faster than near to the center of the disk. This means that on a wide chisel or plane blade the edge toward the outside is seeing more abrasive than toward the center, with each revolution.

It seems to me (this being the case) that the outside edge of the tool would grind faster than the inside and if one were applying pressure evenly across the tool, then you would wind up with a shallow skew to the blade. Is this an issue?

DC

[Jim Koepke]

I've always wondered about those sharpeners. The disk is turning at a constant RPM and you are grinding with the blade of the tool resting on the disc basically along the radius, yes? Because, like a drill bit, as the disc is rotating the surface speed of at the outermost edge is faster than near to the center of the disk. This means that on a wide chisel or plane blade the edge toward the outside is seeing more abrasive than toward the center, with each revolution.

It seems to me (this being the case) that the outside edge of the tool would grind faster than the inside and if one were applying pressure evenly across the tool, then you would wind up with a shallow skew to the blade. Is this an issue?

DC

Remember, there is more than one way to operate one's sharpening system.

The instructions that came with mine, ~20 years ago, direct the user to move the tool side to side as opposed to holding the tool in a single position. For my blades, the bevel will be held on the right side with the abrasive running into the bevel and then on the left side with the abrasive running out of the bevel's edge. At times the edge is even carefully run past the edge of the platter. This tends to create a fairly straight bevel. Without moving the blade, the edge can become skewed over time.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

There is always a lot of noise in sharpening threads but the one thing that beginners or even those who have been at it for a while have a problem with is what does sharp actually feel like. All those years ago when I started out I thought I knew what sharp was but it turned out I didn't and with changing methods and jigs etc I found a new level of sharpness several times and I bet money that some in this thread think they sharpen to an ultimate level but only sharpen to what they consider is sharp which is exactly what I do. What I am trying to say is that someone starting out has no standard to compare their results with someone who is good at it so he or she most probably stops when they think they have sharp. I saw a Japanese sharpening video years ago and it featured an American working & being taught in a sharpening workshop in Japan where that is all they did and it took years to get to the level that was considered excellent.

[Edward Weber]

There is always a lot of noise in sharpening threads but the one thing that beginners or even those who have been at it for a while have a problem with is what does sharp actually feel like. All those years ago when I started out I thought I knew what sharp was but it turned out I didn't and with changing methods and jigs etc I found a new level of sharpness several times and I bet money that some in this thread think they sharpen to an ultimate level but only sharpen to what they consider is sharp which is exactly what I do.

Have a tool "sharp", whatever your definition of that is, is important but can easily become an obsession with no real end in sight.
IMNSHO, there is no need for those who strive for scalpel sharp chisels and plane irons. After only a few seconds or inches of paring, that pinnacle of sharpness that took hours to obtain is gone.
Choose your method and sharpen the best you can, test how well it cuts, does it do what you need it to. If something needs to be improved, change one thing at a time until your goals are met, until it is "sharp" enough for you. repeat if necessary.

[Chris Parks]

I agree with the sharpen until it works theory but having a reference or target lets you compare how far off you are and most probably shortens the learning curve and frustration involved.

[James Pallas]

I learned from finish carpenters. Two sided carborundum course and fine. Spit or sometimes oil. There were arguments about spit, Beechnut, Snuff or plain. Strop on your belt tail, carpenter coveralls or hand. Good enough with some practice. Still good enough today. Maybe not for carving but close. Never knew a carpenter that carried a whole sharpening kit to a job site. They sharpened plane irons, chisels, pocket knives, utility knives all the same. Me too.
Jim

[David Carroll]

I agree with the sharpen until it works theory but having a reference or target lets you compare how far off you are and most probably shortens the learning curve and frustration involved.

People have different ways to determine sharpness, but I think that in itself, takes some practice that one develops with time and experience, right along with sharpening itself. I can now judge a sharp edge by dragging my thumb across it, carefully. I used to shave hairs off of my forearm, but after doing that long enough, it gave up growing.

Sometimes, I will grab a scrap of pine and cut the end grain. If it cuts cleanly and leaves a waxy-smooth finish, then that's about as sharp as I can manage, and certainly as sharp as I need.

But these days I rarely do the pine end-grain trick on anything but carving tools. For bench chisels and plane blades and cutters, I just rely on my now calibrated thumb-drag. Incidentally, in 50 years of woodworking and sharpening, I have never cut myself doing this. But if you aren't careful, it is certainly possible to. So be careful.

DC

[Edward Weber]

I agree with the sharpen until it works theory but having a reference or target lets you compare how far off you are and most probably shortens the learning curve and frustration involved.

I don't totally disagree with that BUT,
The problems can often come into play when people find out just how far off they are and resort to trying every new gizmo that comes down the pike to try and emulate the reference.

IMO, There is a bit of air that "everything needs to be the best" these days. Not what's good enough for the job or even beyond but the best. People talking about sharpening to 30,000 etc does not help a beginner who just wants to sharpen a chisel to start cutting wood.
As it often boils down to in these sharpening threads, do what works for you, it can be as simple or as complex as you make it.
The OP talks about being locked into the way you do things and I agree to a point. I also believe it's better to start out simple and add tools and techniques when necessary rather than starting with a complex method and/or system and find it's not needed.

Disclaimer,
I sharpen to a single flat bevel, the time and effort creating secondary bevels or hollow grinding is not worth it to me. I sharpen when I need to.

[Jim Koepke]

…
I used to shave hairs off of my forearm, but after doing that long enough, it gave up growing.

Sometimes, I will grab a scrap of pine and cut the end grain. If it cuts cleanly and leaves a waxy-smooth finish, then that's about as sharp as I can manage, and certainly as sharp as I need.

… I just rely on my now calibrated thumb-drag. Incidentally, in 50 years of woodworking and sharpening, I have never cut myself doing this. But if you aren't careful, it is certainly possible to. So be careful.

DC

Like you David, I have been testing with my thumb since the late 1950s without cutting myself.

I do like an edge sharpened to the extreme, but usually now settle for an edge sharp enough to do the job cleanly.

I have shaved a lot of arm hair. Now pushing an edge into a piece of paper or taking shavings off of end grain is a good way to test the sharpness of an edge.

#65 On End Grain.jpg

It requires a sharp blade to take a continuous shaving on end grain. End grain doesn't tear out like face grain. Instead the fibers are pushed and separated by a dulled blade.

As David mentions, a chisel on pine end grain should leave a waxy appearance.

Chiseled End Grain.jpg

On the left is the surface left by a saw, on the right is the surface worked with a sharp chisel.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

A cheap knockoff Elcipse honing guide helps things first,
so you can get a feel of when the tip is on the hone, i.e getting your finger on the hone to feel that.
I use diamonds, one cheapie, and one good one.
That's after a fresh grind, or you'll be forever getting an edge.

After that, changing to freehand, so here's some tips for this...
To stop tipping about, and get a feel for the angle.
Try resting the iron on the hone, with the iron skewed by a large amount, (no honing yet)
Then try tipping the far corner, you may find at this 45 degree angle, that your wrist won't allow it within reason. (that may get you a feel for things, with a decent grip)

Now with a better idea of being consistent, I can mention some things which helped me.
I don't look at the bevel, but the back of the iron at arms length, with a white board behind.
What I'm looking at is the slighter than many might suggest, camber.
This tells me which side of the iron I should be focusing on.

Two tips here worth noting...
Understand that pushing an iron along the length of the hone, if skewing by not very much atall, will be much more tedious,
than if you were to keep the iron straighter, much like the way you'd use a honing guide, probably 3 times quicker.

The second tip, if having trouble with a fine camber, (say if wanting to make use of the cap iron)
then David's tip will get both sides of the iron consistent...I won't mention the super misleading term he's coined for that.
No leaning, nor tipping involved, but getting ones finger on the edge/hone, much closer than Cosman's close grip.
The material (corners) gets removed depending where a finger is, nowhere else.
(mentioning again, no leaning or anything else involved)

The result of this being a much better camber than others will show, from the usual YT guys who don't use the cap iron to its potential
evident by the straight shavings jumping out, (and not needing a hand)
and it'll be sharp after that.
(Yes there's more to the cap iron than that, the cap/chipbreaker/tomato/potato, being honed at least 50deg, and the mouth open)

Yeah, some will say, but the OP may not have asked for that, true it may be,
but my point being, focusing on the profile will make things sharp.
I do the same thing for chisels, or indeed very acute Crown marking knives.
The latter, being a good teacher of geometry too, i.e no skewing.

My 2 cents
All the best
Tom

[Jimmy Harris]

Sharpening can be its own hobby. And that might intimidate people, seeing how many people take it seriously. For example, let's take coffee. There are those who will spend thousands of dollars a year on new grinders, fancy machines, scales, doodads, and freshly roasted beans imported with overnight shipping. They'll use bottled water and spend 30 minutes preparing the perfect cup. And they love doing this. It's their hobby. But that doesn't mean that a guy shoveling some Folgers into a Mr. Coffee automatic drip machine can't enjoy his coffee too. And either approach gets the day started.

You don't have to make sharpening a hobby to enjoy a sharp blade for woodworking unless you want to. You can polish a blade to rival a surgical scalpel, but that level of sharpness gives no advantage to a woodworker, other than bragging rights. All you need is sharp enough to get the job done. You don't have to go down that rabbit hole unless you want to.

You don't need to take classes, watch videos, buy specialty tools or use so-and-so's method or whatever to sharpen a blade. You can if you want to. That's fine. But really, you just need to practice and figure out what works for you. If you don't know what sharp feels like, but a utility knife. They come pre sharpened. And be prepared to mess some blades up while you're figuring it out. Don't panic if you do. Once you figure it out, those blades can be fixed.

To this day, I'll encounter different blade designs where I'll have to relearn how to sharpen and teach myself a new method. A new way to hold the stone or pass the blade or whatever. Take it slow. Focus. Stay consistent. I can get it done. Because sharpening anything is all about understanding how sharpening works and how to use what you have available to achieve that goal. It is really simple, if a bit physically difficult sometimes. But it is not complex. Humans have been sharpening stuff since at least 3300 B.C. It doesn't have to be hard, unless you make it hard. So don't make it hard on yourself. Just practice and learn from your mistakes. You are your own best teacher. Take advantage of that. Don't try to take the shortcut, because that's how you get lost.

[Eric Brown]

And then there are crazy people such as myself that move the blade sideways across either a diamond stone or ceramic. I don't worry about grooving the stones. I just do it. The advantage is that it is easy to produce a chamber, maybe too easy. However, I am only typically touching them up. If restoring a plane with a rough blade I will first hit it with a 1" belt sander (bench model, cup of water to keep cool).

Now the question is: Do you sharpen after use, before use, or only if you think it needs it. (I'm in the last group.)

[Jim Koepke]

And then there are crazy people such as myself that move the blade sideways across either a diamond stone or ceramic.
…
Now the question is: Do you sharpen after use, before use, or only if you think it needs it. (I'm in the last group.)

On one episode of The Woodwright's Shop (Carving Away with Mary May) she shows a technique of sharpening gouges by a side to side swaying motion.

Honing is in at about 14:30 > https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwright...away-mary-may/

If it is good enough for gouges, then it is likely good enough for chisels. (it often works for me)

Usually my blades are sharpened when it seems like they need it. Though some of my blades will be evaluated carefully when put to use. My blades from Ron Hock seem to cut well for a long time even when well worn. They do not indicate over use like many other blades. Most blades will leave a little line where they have developed a nick, usually the Hock blades do not. If they get overly worn it is a lot more honing to get back to a sharp edge.

jtk

[David Carroll]

That's a pretty common technique for sharpening carving gouges. I use it on all my gouges. I have tried it on bench chisels and find it awkward. I can see how it is easier to keep the bevel flat against the stone, because you can see it all as you go, but I guess I am so used to doing it the way I do that any new technique would feel awkward.

DC