cope and stick micro shaker?

[David Zaret]

has anyone done a cope and stick micro/skinny shaker setup, or is the consensus that it's always a miter wrap? i talked to Great Lakes a while back, and they hadn't seen it (or at least my rep hadn't), curious what others have done. i would much, much rather make them on the shaper than at the slider or chop saw. thanks!

-- dz

[Kevin Jenness]

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a square edge t&g for thin material, in which case a narrow groover and a pair of matched square cutters plus a spacer would do, or something else?

[John Pendery]

I did a micro shaker kitchen about ten years ago before I’d even heard the name for them and did a miter wrap. I was not crazy about the build, but the finished look was nice and clean. If doing again today I would also try to figure out a way to do them on my shaper. Seems like this style is taking off at the moment. I’ll be very interested to see what you come up with, David, and how others have done this style cabinet.

[David Zaret]

kevin, sorry, you're right, that was pretty vague. let me clarify:

1) is there precedence in industry, or design, for a cope and stick micro shaker, where the stiles run long and the rails meet the stiles at a 90, vs. the more commonly seen mitered door style? i'm working on a bid for an architect who's telling us that another bidder is specifying the panels as "cope and stick," and searches turned up nothing.

2) in the event it's a "thing," has anyone had a knife profile made that achieves this? i don't think it's as simple as described, as the stock will be thicker (1" or so), and the intersection with the 3/4" panel could be customized. for example, a slight break at the top to ensure finishes don't bridge, and perhaps some geometry to best ensure a flush back between the panel and frame...

i'm just asking to see if anyone has done this, considered the issues, and had a matching set designed and made, before i undertake it.

hope that clarifies, and isn't a terribly stupid question.

-- dz

[Cary Falk]

I have never made them and had to do a search to see what you were talking about so take my opinion for what you paid for it. My first hit on my search shows a rail and stile which is clearly visible in the center door. I would do a cope and stick on a shaper if I were doing it. It would be quicker and easier for me. I think I would even do a dowel or Domino at every joint since they are so narrow and have little glue surface. I hate making mitered picture frames.

Slim-Shaker-Doors.jpg

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I posted about my quick, simple method for simple, slim, Shaker rails with the router table and dado not too long ago. Some of this may apply.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....age2&p=3251823

[Kevin Jenness]

Yeah, I had to look it up too. Basically a picture frame surrounding a recessed man-made panel with the panel rather than the frame providing the structure. I too would opt for a cope/stick joint rather than a miter wrap. I don't see why a groover and a pair of straight cutters would not work, but if I wanted a rounded inside corner I would have corrugated knives cut. Flushing the back should not be a problem in any case.

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.

[Jared Sankovich]

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.

Shaker now is anything flat panel. "fancy shaker" is a flat panel with a sticking detail or applied moulding. The illogical next step is raised panel shaker which will come full circle and redefine "shaker" as a door of any style.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.

The Shaker Village and museum in Infield NH is neat to visit. The Shakers sure have a pleasing aesthetic. They also found very beautiful places to make their settlements and built things that stand the test of time.

https://shakermuseum.org/

Canterbury NH Too.

https://www.shakers.org/

[Warren Lake]

over the years ive seen the drawers on some higher end kitchens done in some sort of narrow wood around a panel. Ive not done it before and thought ill think about it one day but since I do rail and styles its not been a thing ive needed or asked to do. To me the three doors shown are two different things. The white is rail and style the other two are a panel banded in solid, more than a quarter inch solid in width and overlapping the panel and having some profile. There isnt much meat to be machining on the narrow examples.

Ive noted that type of construction on drawers enough times and seems to me its always some sort of profiled raised banding solid wood that is mitred at every corner. On regular doors rail and style doors I don't see mitred rail and style doors even though its done. I can see it in a very high end veneer job like some past stuff. Its a different thing.

Likely seen the one or two banded samples on doors for the first time. Not up on the latest. Where ever it was I looked and enough that I remember now but takes me time to digest stuff and wasn't sure how I felt about it Are designers leading us around. Is this a money driven change. It would cut solid cost down. Reinventing the wheel. Konegsigg making carbon fibre wheels for his cars, I get that.

Does some one have a photo of this showing a finished piece, is it a better look in some way or just a change. When drawers fronts are narrow then your rails take up a lot of panel area so most people reduce the rails to some amount. Easier with a flat panel than raised unless you did a panel like Moser used to do with a very small cope on the outside of the panel.

[Kevin Jenness]

Shaker now is anything flat panel. "fancy shaker" is a flat panel with a sticking detail or applied moulding. The illogical next step is raised panel shaker which will come full circle and redefine "shaker" as a door of any style.

Chris Becksvoort's Shaker Legacy is a good reference for variations in traditional Shaker cabinetwork, which includes raised and fielded panels and beaded frames. It doesn't show any "skinny Shaker" doors, but who knows what use they might have made of plywood? They certainly were not averse to technological innovations.

Years ago I showed a visiting French cabinetmaker the flat panel doors in the fireplace surround at my grandmother's 1840's house in western Maine. He said the doors were backward because the panel raises were on the reverse face. The maker had chosen a flat recessed "Shaker" panel look and beveled the backs so as to use panel stock at hand.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Kevin Jenness, I watched a YouTube book review for Shaker Legacy and requested the book via I.L.L.
I.L.L. is a free service offered by most libraries.

Screen Shot 2024-03-24 at 4.16.30 PM.png

[John Pendery]

The need for a flush door back to receive hinges was one reason I opted for the miter wrap in the past. My shop is much better equipped now, but still toss around the best build method for this style cabinet door. One thing I do remember being nice about a miter wrap method was milling the “rails and stiles” was super simple, and with stops setup cutting to length was also very quick. Doing it over I would potentially want to develop an efficient cope and stick method, but I still wonder the best method considering the rails and stiles here don’t provide any structural support as they normally do and seem more like glorified edge banding. If you wind up with the job I’ll be interested to see how you choose to tackle it.

[David Zaret]

The need for a flush door back to receive hinges was one reason I opted for the miter wrap in the past. My shop is much better equipped now, but still toss around the best build method for this style cabinet door. One thing I do remember being nice about a miter wrap method was milling the “rails and stiles” was super simple, and with stops setup cutting to length was also very quick. Doing it over I would potentially want to develop an efficient cope and stick method, but I still wonder the best method considering the rails and stiles here don’t provide any structural support as they normally do and seem more like glorified edge banding. If you wind up with the job I’ll be interested to see how you choose to tackle it.

i wouldn't consider doing a cope and stick with a floating panel - it would still rely on a full thickness panel, flush on the back, to use standard euro hardware. the only difference would be the corner joints, and the efficiency of using the shaper to make them.

[John Pendery]

David, understood. I was only thinking out loud in my previous post if this style is in fact more efficient to build how one would traditionally do cope and sticking on the shaper of if this is an exception due to just how narrow the parts are. Really was just echoing your original question I guess. Maybe it gets as simple as differing from one shop equipped with a stile and rail cabinet door clamp to another with miter door clamping table.