cope and stick micro shaker?

[David Zaret]

has anyone done a cope and stick micro/skinny shaker setup, or is the consensus that it's always a miter wrap? i talked to Great Lakes a while back, and they hadn't seen it (or at least my rep hadn't), curious what others have done. i would much, much rather make them on the shaper than at the slider or chop saw. thanks!

-- dz

[Kevin Jenness]

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a square edge t&g for thin material, in which case a narrow groover and a pair of matched square cutters plus a spacer would do, or something else?

[John Pendery]

I did a micro shaker kitchen about ten years ago before I’d even heard the name for them and did a miter wrap. I was not crazy about the build, but the finished look was nice and clean. If doing again today I would also try to figure out a way to do them on my shaper. Seems like this style is taking off at the moment. I’ll be very interested to see what you come up with, David, and how others have done this style cabinet.

[David Zaret]

kevin, sorry, you're right, that was pretty vague. let me clarify:

1) is there precedence in industry, or design, for a cope and stick micro shaker, where the stiles run long and the rails meet the stiles at a 90, vs. the more commonly seen mitered door style? i'm working on a bid for an architect who's telling us that another bidder is specifying the panels as "cope and stick," and searches turned up nothing.

2) in the event it's a "thing," has anyone had a knife profile made that achieves this? i don't think it's as simple as described, as the stock will be thicker (1" or so), and the intersection with the 3/4" panel could be customized. for example, a slight break at the top to ensure finishes don't bridge, and perhaps some geometry to best ensure a flush back between the panel and frame...

i'm just asking to see if anyone has done this, considered the issues, and had a matching set designed and made, before i undertake it.

hope that clarifies, and isn't a terribly stupid question.

-- dz

[Rich Engelhardt]

kevin, sorry, you're right, that was pretty vague. let me clarify:

1) is there precedence in industry, or design, for a cope and stick micro shaker, where the stiles run long and the rails meet the stiles at a 90, vs. the more commonly seen mitered door style? i'm working on a bid for an architect who's telling us that another bidder is specifying the panels as "cope and stick," and searches turned up nothing.

2) in the event it's a "thing," has anyone had a knife profile made that achieves this? i don't think it's as simple as described, as the stock will be thicker (1" or so), and the intersection with the 3/4" panel could be customized. for example, a slight break at the top to ensure finishes don't bridge, and perhaps some geometry to best ensure a flush back between the panel and frame...

i'm just asking to see if anyone has done this, considered the issues, and had a matching set designed and made, before i undertake it.

hope that clarifies, and isn't a terribly stupid question.

-- dz

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was ignorant about what "mini shaker" is.
I'm wondering if the architect knows what the client is expecting?

If I were a client and told the architect I wanted "mini shaker" and was expecting to see mitered corners - I would be very upset at seeing a bunch of end grain frames.

[David Zaret]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was ignorant about what "mini shaker" is.
I'm wondering if the architect knows what the client is expecting?

If I were a client and told the architect I wanted "mini shaker" and was expecting to see mitered corners - I would be very upset at seeing a bunch of end grain frames.

so... regular cabinet cope and stick doors have the stiles running long... that's not offensive, but it would be in a micro-shaker configuration? i don't know that i have a strong opinion on this, as i don't love micro shaker as a design style to begin with, but i don't know that the cope and stick joints vs. miter joints are a real design consideration (i suppose we'll find out). my guess is that we see primarily mitered skinny shaker because ... how else do you make them? it'll be interesting to see how the architect responds.

-- dz

[Rich Engelhardt]

so... regular cabinet cope and stick doors have the stiles running long... that's not offensive, but it would be in a micro-shaker configuration? i don't know that i have a strong opinion on this, as i don't love micro shaker as a design style to begin with, but i don't know that the cope and stick joints vs. miter joints are a real design consideration (i suppose we'll find out). my guess is that we see primarily mitered skinny shaker because ... how else do you make them? it'll be interesting to see how the architect responds.

-- dz

It would be every bit as offensive in a "regular" configuration - - if - - it was not what the end user wants.
This is the type of thing to clear up now.

[David Zaret]

It would be every bit as offensive in a "regular" configuration - - if - - it was not what the end user wants.
This is the type of thing to clear up now.

absolutely agree. we'll see what the architect says.

[Joe Calhoon]

Might be best to make a sample corner of each. I’ve never done these but think I would prefer a mitered corner and treat it like thick edge banding. Probably would rebate it so the inside edge overlaps the plywood to prevent glue squeeze out. Also mitering you could run the small radius on the inside before assembly. With cope and stick that inside radius will be a bit tricky. Also applying and gluing as edge banding the flush joint at the back will be easier to achieve and get a tight glue line. Cope and stick might be more difficult to achieve this. Making samples is always helpful to work out construction details.
I assume we are talking about doors like the picture posted above? The 2 on top.
IMG_0012.jpeg

[John Pendery]

Might be best to make a sample corner of each. I’ve never done these but think I would prefer a mitered corner and treat it like thick edge banding. Probably would rebate it so the inside edge overlaps the plywood to prevent glue squeeze out. Also mitering you could run the small radius on the inside before assembly. With cope and stick that inside radius will be a bit tricky. Also applying and gluing as edge banding the flush joint at the back will be easier to achieve and get a tight glue line. Cope and stick might be more difficult to achieve this. Making samples is always helpful to work out construction details.
I assume we are talking about doors like the picture posted above? The 2 on top.
IMG_0012.jpeg

Joe, you have articulated my line of thinking very well here. The inside edge radius was one of the reasons I chose for the miter wrap back when I did that kitchen in this style, along with the flush back to the panel. Glad I’m not all alone and completely crazy!

[Joe Calhoon]

John, I would picture a section something like this. Glue and clamp with PVA double coating the ply. Would be plenty strong.

IMG_8756.jpg

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a square edge t&g for thin material, in which case a narrow groover and a pair of matched square cutters plus a spacer would do, or something else?

This is how I do it. A pair of 10" discs for tenon side and an adjustable groover for the the cope. I always do 1" shouldered tenons. but thats just me.

[Cary Falk]

I have never made them and had to do a search to see what you were talking about so take my opinion for what you paid for it. My first hit on my search shows a rail and stile which is clearly visible in the center door. I would do a cope and stick on a shaper if I were doing it. It would be quicker and easier for me. I think I would even do a dowel or Domino at every joint since they are so narrow and have little glue surface. I hate making mitered picture frames.

Slim-Shaker-Doors.jpg

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I posted about my quick, simple method for simple, slim, Shaker rails with the router table and dado not too long ago. Some of this may apply.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....age2&p=3251823

[Kevin Jenness]

Yeah, I had to look it up too. Basically a picture frame surrounding a recessed man-made panel with the panel rather than the frame providing the structure. I too would opt for a cope/stick joint rather than a miter wrap. I don't see why a groover and a pair of straight cutters would not work, but if I wanted a rounded inside corner I would have corrugated knives cut. Flushing the back should not be a problem in any case.

It's funny how far "Shaker" is stretched. I wonder what the oldtimers at Sabbathday Lake would think. Maybe they should get a cut of the designer's fee.