Centauro 600

[STUART Robertson]

Looking for suggestions...from others with experience with Centauro 600 or similar...
1.Having considerable issues with drift.
Work pulling away from fence and or wandering in the cut.This has been very frustrating.
Have replaced tyres and main bearings.
2.Usually using 3/4 or 1" blades.
Is a blade tension guage (e.g Starrett)the best way to go rather than the built in guage.
3.Replacement guides,what do you suggest in terms of euro style guides with thrust.Make and source.
4.Using the manufacturer's guide to hang the teeth just off the tyre doesn't seem to work.Putting them nearer the centre seems more successful.
5.Do you find CT or Stellite type blades a better choice.

[Lee Schierer]

One thing: Align your table and fence to the blade.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I would try using a brand new blade, as it sounds like yours may be dull enough to wander.

[Tom M King]

Sounds like the blade to me. I run mine with the teeth of the 1" blade off the edge like the directions say, and it cuts dead true until a blade starts to get tired. I even resawed a piece over normal width without the table and top guides on it once and it didn't know the difference. Start screwing with the alignment before trying a fresh blade and there will be no end to chasing your tail.

edited to add: I only run 1" blades on mine. I never touch the guides after first setup some years ago. For clean wood I run a Lenox 1" Woodmaster CT 1.3 tpi. I do have a non carbide tipped blade I use for something I don't want to risk the good blade in but the saw doesn't know the difference. I've had that blade for so long that I forget what brand it is.

[Andrew Hughes]

The Laguna Resaw King used to be stellite laguna tools never admitted it but the guy the used sharpen blades for me said it was. I liked stellite thought it cut faster then carbide. It also left a superior surface.
Carbide last longer that alone makes it the winner. It would be nice to have both blades hanging in the bullpen.
Good Luck

[andrew whicker]

If it isn't the blade and you still have issues feel free to look at my posts regarding my own issues. I spent many an hour on my centauro.

I don't think you need a tension gage.

[Tom Trees]

There's quite a few Centauro 600 machines out there.
Discounting the SP line, which if concerning the bare bones of things, are much the same as most other Italian saws, and newer CO saws.

I can give you a rundown, concerning the most important aspects of things,
i.e a smooth running saw with longevity in mind.

Here's seemingly the first iteration of welded sheet steel 600mm wheeled saw, the most notable thing is the lack of a hub for adjustment of the lower wheel.

Centauro CO first steel.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Gm5nKH9Q/Centau...irst-steel.jpg

Next we have the fully adjustable CO machines which ran from sometime in the 1980's to 1995/6,
1993CO.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/xTs8Bw51/1993CO.jpg

And thereafter the next line of CO saws, which are only fully adjustable with determined intervention!.
Pretty much like any other Italian saw, with great parts and that, but aren't designed with longevity in mind.
CENTAURO CO 1996.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/1zLh2Cgd/CENTAURO-CO-1996.jpg

Not much different to what we see from Centauro today
Minimax 600.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/d3sWxr9X/Minimax-600.jpg

If you've got the fully adjustable model, then it'd be a good idea to align everything, since it's easier to do than the other machines,
whilst bearing in mind the age of the saw,
That is...if you don't wish to get any nasty surprises down the road, namely concerning damage to the wheel bores,
but also concerning the camber apex of the tires,
as misaligned wheels will nibble off that apex, and flat tires will compress the set of regular blades,
especially so if not tracking the blades off the wheels,
though I can mention misaligned wheels and no camber, will also compress set, if tracking regular blades as per Centauro's/any other Italian manufacturers suggestion too,
just not quite as quickly.

Another very notable thing regarding aligned wheels and correct/undamaged tire profile, as mentioned in the SP manual, but none other!
being the lesser importance of thrust guides, seeing as a given blade will have much less tendency to make contact with the guides,
so you might be happy enough without needing to cough up for new thrust rollers.

As you might have guessed, all the above isn't something the manufacturers would want you to know.

Though I'm just a bandsaw troll of course, and you shouldn't question these things, and instead buy blades which don't have a set to be compressed,
new guides, preferably ceramic ones which they don't offer, and when the saw has "paid for itself" then you can buy a new machine,

Just don't question why you see the same machines, of a certain age, popping up on fleabay from time to time, for much less than you'd pay for a new one.
Screenshot-2023-12-21 SCM Mini Max S600P Bandsaw 3 Phrase eBay.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/2SYS1526/Screen...rase-e-Bay.png

As I said, not knocking Centauro whatsoever, they're what I would buy if I needed another bandsaw,
I'd just factor in a tin o'paint, no bothers.
All needed is an alignment tool, and a steel plate, same deal as with the rest of the Italian saws.
Not much point in getting an equivalently priced brand new knockoff when the guarantees are worthless,
seeing as you can't really measure vibration or anything else for that matter, well without a wheel alignment tool that is.

Make yer bandsaw last forever!
All the best

Tom

[STUART Robertson]

All very helpful suggestions thankyou.
I'm not a novice which is adding to my irritation with this saw.
And have had other saws but never these issues,although smaller saws.
I have tried with new blades,aligning the fence,tracking on and off the tyre...
Tom,it's the 1996 version as in your photo...
now how to check that alignment 🤔?
Anyone have comments regarding current SCM 640 and 540 models?

[Tom Trees]

There's two ways of checking east/west wheel alignment, i.e.. in order to have the wheels not pointing off to either side of the machine,
and both ways about it, involve laying down the tape.
I done it the hard way, using a scribing beam, requiring the faces/edges/lips of the wheel to be accurate enough to register said beam against.
Scribing beam.jpeg
https://i.postimg.cc/rsjzc0t7/Scribing-beam.jpg

Checking wheel face.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/fLpQdwQk/Checking-wheel-face.jpg

Draw filing wheel face.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/4xLLyWgx/Draw-f...wheel-face.jpg

Doing it this way, If you don't check those wheels are within tolerance, (i.e to be able to draw a straight line)...regardless of where on the wheel the scribing beam is placed,
then you could be off by a long shot, i.e 4mm, if there's a 0.5mm discrepancy on the upper wheel. (unnoticeable by eye).

You might be better off...since it's a Centauro with grooved wheels to align tires, to make up a tool which gets placed where the wheel retaining bolt & washer goes,
to shoot a pen laser onto the tape instead, under blade tension that is...
A sort of shaft extension if you will, in which a bored block of timber/w/laser gets installed.
This might give an idea, though it'd be with the wheel involved.
SAM_7704.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/B6cwS4Zd/SAM-7704.jpg

Scribing datum .jpeg
https://i.postimg.cc/NFZXZrqY/Scribing-datum.jpg

Here's a clearer picture of the idea, though it wasn't accurate due to the wheels not being in tolerance.
Wheel alignment (kinda) .jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/FHzR0H2V/Wheel-alignment-kinda.jpg


And that's the part where you find out the motor won't likely align with the upper wheel datum, (non-adjustable concerning lateral rotation)
unless you're extremely lucky, go buy a lottery ticket if it turns out to be in line w/upper wheel.
Not fancying that, then you'd better have a loose drive belt(s)!
SAM_6902 (copy).jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/jSMMkZ3r/SAM-6902-copy.jpg

So with the adjustable motor plate made, shimmed to be in alignment with the upper wheel datum,
then no compromises will be made regarding accurate wheel alignment, and you won't be needing to cough up for expensive parts down the road.
Motor alignment 1 .jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/90cT2jzg/Motor-alignment-1.png

That I think is the max picture limit, should be self explanatory, and the details are on many a Centauro thread here, and on other places elsewhere also,
along with the previous misery of damaged motor bearings before all this, assuming the chassis would be a good starting point,
mentioning frying a cheapo VFD with a saw running badly,
repairing the wheel bore with a sleeve, and mythbusting the flat tire misconception that many have on the Italian machines etc.
Guilty as charged your honour!

I can mention there's SCM machines for cheap on the bay aswell, if you've gotten the impression that I'm a Centauro knocker, not so.
Just the same as from any other manufacturer of machine made today, though worth noting, if ya think that's bad...
Some of the Far Eastern machines aren't even worth working on, as they're not made to run for 20 somethin years, which would be too much and pointless to explain why.
(all stuff to do with either shoddy or non-adjustable bottom wheels, and associated things to mask those issues)

All the best
Tom

[STUART Robertson]

Whew...thankyou.
I'm located deep in the south pacific,a long way from anywhere.
Good used machines are not easy to obtain and new ones very costly,very high freight costs.
Going back a step to symptoms and causes...
I've frequently read that having wheels coplanar is not a necessity or is this with regard to N/S orientation and the fact that they are immediately out the minute you track the blade.
If the wheels are not aligned E to W,how will this express itself via the blade?
Will it mean the blade is essentially twisting as it leaves the top wheel and as it engages the bottom wheel?Meaning the blade is lying in two different planes respectively as it travels.I would expect this to be more significant with wider blades.
It seems to cut perfectly square to the table as set.
The blade stays in position in that it doesn't wander off piste.
I'm trying to get my head around defining a relevant datum/reference plane to define any alignment discrepancy.

[STUART Robertson]

I'm new to using this forum and not sure how to find those posts.
Thanks

[STUART Robertson]

If I put a straight edge across each wheel,East to west and measure the difference, wouldn't that tell me how far out of alignment they were.
This assumes the wheels themselves are accurately machined and not twisted...and they are cast.
It would be the central axis of each wheel you'd have to compare?

[Tom Trees]

I've frequently read that having wheels coplanar is not a necessity or is this with regard to N/S orientation and the fact that they are immediately out the minute you track the blade.

The co-planar adjustment under tension is smoother regarding the drive belt(s), though not to be confused with blade tracking thereafter.
SAM_7868.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/tJBQDvkf/SAM-7868.jpg

If the wheels are not aligned E to W,how will this express itself via the blade?

Provided you've checked your blade, and it's perfectly welded, and the thrust guides are backed off,
then watching whether it stays put on top of the wheel whilst hand turning the upper wheel will show this up,
as seen in most utoobs, where you can see the blade walking about.
Inspect blade here whilst turning blade by hand .jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/MHKgcbwY/Inspec...de-by-hand.png

If I put a straight edge across each wheel,East to west and measure the difference, wouldn't that tell me how far out of alignment they were.
This assumes the wheels themselves are accurately machined and not twisted...and they are cast.
It would be the central axis of each wheel you'd have to compare?

There's normally nothing accurate on most wheels to be able trust, especially the hubs,
which is why I was mentioning to take a reading from the wheel shafts instead,
as you've no need to make the edges of the wheels accurate on a Centauro.

There is a max picture count of 8 posts IIRC, so I didn't bother posting the rest, as it's mentioned elsewhere in better detail,
but going back to "simply" using a beam and rule, I chased my tail for a long time, as I was under the impression the faces/edges/lips/call'em what you wish,
were accurate, due to the machine marks,
when infact this was throwing things off, and clamping a beam to the upper wheel....
which is non adjustable, concerning lateral rotation of the wheel shaft...therefore the datum regarding east/west alignment of the lower wheel....
didn't work either, for two main reasons.

One being adjustments of the lower wheel shaft jacking screws (the hub at the back) requiring the blade to be tracked to it's new location. with every adjustment.
The second, and by far most importantly... the accuracy of the wheels necessary to do such.
i.e Two pictures of failed attempts below... and I've yet more failed attempts freehanding things also, (which is a good way to throw yer back out!)
Failed alignment attempt clamping beam .jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/SNBHrPkJ/Failed...mping-beam.jpg
Failed alignment with clamped beam and rule.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/vBzc7Kjn/Failed...m-and-rule.jpg

That can only be spotted with a pen on the end of the beam, which scribes a line on the tape stuck to the chassis base...
illustrating very clearly, what a unnoticeable by eye, 0.5mm discrepancy will show up.
That doesn't mean twisted wheels, nor runout involved (which would be concerning the wheel bore)
Its simply an intentional discrepancy left there, to throw folks off,

So it's not a case of simply at all, as one has to check every portion of the wheel, in which the beam rests against,
to see if the pen lands on the same spot, or indeed short line,
as that tiny discrepancy will cause the pen to draw a differing mark, which would make it seem like one turned the tracking screw.

Without trued wheel faces .jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/kGNS6Knf/Withou...heel-faces.jpg

That's around 4mm of variance, so certainly not trustworthy.
You could check this without even removing the table, and just stick some tape onto a clamped board, and see what maximum error you'd get with a pen stuck
to some sort'a beam, which I suppose would be around half(ish) of what you'd see on the chassis base.
You might be less miffed about making a tool for the job instead.

I've pretty much posted all this on every bandsaw thread since last year with quite a bit more detail.
Shouldn't be too difficult to find.

All the best
Tom

[STUART Robertson]

Getting a bit confused now...but thankyou again.
The current blade in use has a bad weld so it has a bit of a hump along its spine.Accounting for that the blade appears to stay perfectly in place on the wheels under rotation.
I also have again hung the teeth off the tyre as Centauro suggest.
So again I will ask how will any east/west alignment issues of the flywheels manifest when cutting.

So we're trying to measure if the motor shaft and top wheel shaft are lying in the same planes in both x and y axes but the x axis specifically, and how to do this in straightforward way as only one of them is adjustable left to right.
I did put a dial guage on both wheels and each seemed to have a variance of about 5/100 mm,given the vagaries of a cast iron surface.
But no comparison to each other.
It would seem that to be relevant any variation needs to be measured at the horizontal mid line.
Given the relatively small diameters of the shafts this feels difficult to achieve in a meaningful way in a woodshop.
If I set the saw level and then shot a vertical laser line I'd possibly pick up some variation?

Using the 25mm blade and cranking up the tension a bit more has helped with the blade wandering.Currently wanting to rip 300mm.
The most significant issue now is the work piece drifting off the fence.
I've tried the free hand cut allowing the blade to take its course and then setting the fence to that but no joy there...?
Thankyou to all who bother to read this.

[Kevin Jenness]

To check wheel alignment using a laser, shim the saw base level so that the top and bottom edge of the lower wheel at 6:00 and 12:00 are the same distance from the laser plumb line. Then you can check the same points on the upper wheel for offset and compare the 9:00 and 3:00 points on both wheels to see if their planes are parallel. Rotate the wheels to get measurements that average out any runout/casting irregularities. I doubt this is causing your issues but is worth checking.

If upping the tension has eliminated or sufficiently diminished the blade wandering then all you need to do is adjust the table and/or fence to the cut line of a sharp blade. You can check the actual blade tension and compare it to the gauge on the saw with a shop-made gauge. https://sites.google.com/view/jteney...ter?authuser=1