Green turning Douglas fir

[STUART Robertson]

I'm wanting to turn forms from unseasoned Douglas Fir
With extremes of hardness between winter and summer wood I'm struggling with tearout,particularly on the end end grain areas.Even with hair thin cuts and sharp chisels still getting tearout.
Has anyone found a particular gouge grind profile and presentation or any other process helpful?
What process do people use to bleach turned forms?I want to remove colour, not cover with stain.

[Kevin Jenness]

What species is "oregon"? Could you mean Douglas Fir, a natural lamination of bamboo and balsa? If so it's not surprising that you find it challenging, I would try an acute sharpening angle, 40 degrees or less, using a skew as far as possible on spindles and a 40-40 bowl gouge for vessels.

A/B two part bleach (sodium hydroxide and hydrogen peroxide) is probably what you want, neutralized with vinegar and rinsed with water.

[STUART Robertson]

Thanks Kevin,
Yes, douglas fir,(Pseudotsuga menziesii) commonly referred to here as "oregon".It is grown commercially but also in some areas has become what is termed "wilding" and regarded as invasive so is cut to waste or poisoned..
Love your apt description.
Not so much of an issue in long grain turning,more the bowl type format.Already using 40-40 grind with little success.
Inspired by the wonderful work of the late Bill Luce who used it extensively and beautifully.

[Kevin Jenness]

Not having turned it I would try three things:
decrease the grinding angle on the 40-40 gouge to 30* or 35*
hone/buff the edge and keep it as sharp as possible
try to use a shearing cut with the edge meeting the wood at 45* to the turning axis.

In cabinetmaking I found crosscutting Doug Fir veneer worked best with a sharp high angle alternating top bevel saw blade. Very ornery stuff but the slow growth vertical grain material is elegant if cut cleanly. Oversanding on flatsawn stock is deadly due to the soft springwood.

Thank you for introducing me to Bill Luce's work.

[STUART Robertson]

I've not used it for finer cabinet work but have extensively in joinery such as doors,windows and stairs,and yes all cutters need to be as sharp as possible.
I had a slighty better result using m24 but will try different grind angles,that was to be my next approach.
I'm also happy to exploit the variation in grain density at times.
Bill did this to a wonderful extreme by removing most of the summer wood.
See also work by Max Brosi.

[Kevin Jenness]

For sure the structure of Doug fir lends itself to undulating and corrugated surfaces through abrasion. Just the opposite of what I am typically trying to achieve in flatwork but valid in a different context. Thanks for the Max Brosi tip. Please report back when you have perfected your turning process.

[STUART Robertson]

Straight grained Douglas does cleave very easily and I suspect contributes to the difficulties.Even light shear cutting spindle work can result in the summer wood delaminating.

[Brian Brown]

Lots of DF in my area, but I have only turned it once. That was enough. This has worked for me with hardwoods, but I don't know if it will work with something as soft as df. If your are going to use a film forming finish, coat the problems areas with the finish, and let it dry. Use as many coats as necessary to leave a film over the entire area. When it is completely dry, try cutting with razor sharp gouge in a shearing cut. Go slow and easy. The finish will act like glue, holding the fibers still while the blade shears them off. Like I said, it works well on harder woods, but soft stuff.... well, let us know if it works. If it does, maybe I'll try Doug Fir again.

As for the bleaching, there are several commercial bleaching options like A & B bleach, or oxalic acid. These are a bit pricey, and can be a bit hazardous to work with. On a lark, I tried some chlorine bleach. It worked. I don't know the long term effect of the bleach on the wood, but here is the process I used. I would be interested in techniques any others have here.

I used the bleach at 2 parts water to one part bleach. This is really strong, and you can use a 10:1 ratio. It takes longer, but is safer. I used the strong solution because I was doing a club demo, and needed it to work quickly. Put it in a plastic or glass container with something to hold it submerged. Slosh the container around about every two minutes. Soak it as long as necessary to get the bleaching effect you want. Remember that the wood is darker when wet than it will be dry. Remove it from the bleach solution, and rinse it thoroughly in water. Then to neutralize the bleach, soak it the same way in a solution of 1 part Hydrogen peroxide to 6 parts water, for 3-5 minutes. You can go straight to the HP solution, but the reaction can be violent, and foam up, making a big mess. That's why I wash in water first. Remember, bleach ruins clothes, and can be dangerous. wear a face shield, and clothes you don't care about. Be sure you do a trial piece that is sanded to the same level as your real piece. I used hickory-crete for my demo. Soft woods may bleach faster than the hard wood I used for my demo.

Good luck.

[STUART Robertson]

Thanks Brian.
I did try a chlorine bleach but it went a nasty shade.
I do have some high strength peroxide but haven't tried it.
There must be a successful technique for DF and Bill Luce must have just about invented it,unfortunately he died in an accident, so we may never know.
I'm sure he wouldn't have waited for multiple coats of something to hold the fibres together though I guess CA would work quickly but it would be costly...
I recently watched a japanese craftsman turning a similar type of conifer with a very unusual technique. It looked like he was using a hollowing type tool with a heavy shank,however he was cutting at about 5 oclock with tool rest about the usual height but well off the work.Worked for him🤔
Have yet to try...
The wood was clearly dry.
Have a look at Bill Luce's work if you're not familiar with it.
I'll start a new thread with bleaching as the heading and see what other thoughts are out there.

[Bill Howatt]

People have used lacquer and shellac which is cheaper and dries quickly. Have no idea what Bill Luce did, but to say he wouldn't have waited might be a bit presumptuous - a lot of clever turners will go to great lengths and spend time to get the desired result.

[STUART Robertson]

Thanks Bill,
That's very true,Pascal Oudet would be one of them...
Forgot about shellac.And it's likely going to be required in that context when approaching the desired form.

[Brian Brown]

I'm not surprised ate the nasty shade of color. Like I said, I tried it on a lark, and really don't have that much experience with different woods. As for the tear out, I know a lot of people use shellac for this purpose. I recommended using your final finish because when you do put on the final finish, your problem area is more likely to match the rest of the piece, rather than sticking out because of a mismatch or incompatibility problem in the finishes,

[STUART Robertson]

I'm green turning,will shellac stick to wet wood?

[Bill Howatt]

Good question. I did a bit of looking around and didn't really find a definitive answer for your application but there seemed to be a consensus that it should to some degree. The way I look at it is that the alcohol and water are friends that should help in getting some of the shellac into the fibers. Even if you just built up a shellac matrix between the fibers it should provide stiffness and help. Only one real way to find out!

[STUART Robertson]

Thanks Bill.