Old vs. New

[Alan DuBoff]

I have quite a few old tools, and some just have such character to them, and feel oh so nice, it's hard for folks not to like them, IMO.

At the same time I have some new tools I've purchased which I also like, some of them are a better mouse trap than the equivilant old tool. As an example, the LV router plane, for instance.

In talking with Deirdre yesterday evening, we started to talk about old vs. new and that for toolmakers to survive, they do need woodworkers to buy their tools. And people do seem to be doing that, with a type of resurge in toolmakers of such product.

A lot of folks will stick to old tools, or others will stick to new tools, and many will claim that there is no justification in buying a new tool that costs quite a bit more. But the reality is that it takes time to make tools, and those toolmakers need to make enough to survive, and rightfully so.

It seems good to support the current toolmakers, and some of the products they make are just super. Was just curious how other folks think about their tools, if they only buy vintage tools on a matter of cost, or if they buy them because they are the best tools available? I think I'm somewhere in the middle, as I do like and buy old tools, as well as new. For me, if there's a better tool available that is produced today (A Wenzloff & Son saw, a LN plane, a LV plane, Knight plane, Anderson plane, etc...), I'm willing to try to understand it and see if it might fit into my assortment of tools.

Support the toolmakers while you can, otherwise they can and do go out of business. That seems bad when folks go out of business, and I don't see how it advances the woodworking industry when that happens. Thanks to all the toolmakers of all types for making an effort to be in business making tools, for without them we would be a lot worse off in this world, IMO.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

I like keeping tool makers in business.

There are a lot of cool old tools out there, no question. And some of those aren't made any more, so it makes sense to get those as old tools. But for tools currently available, unless there's some compelling reason to buy an old tool, I'll generally buy a new one from the maker.

As an example, a significant percentage of the #40 planes on eBay go for some price in the ballpark of a Steve Knight scrub plane. So I bought the Knight plane.

[Kevin French]

Alan
I'm one who prefers the old tools over the new for several reasons.

#1 IS price. At this point I can't see spending that much on an LN or even an LV. The old Stanleys made far better furniture then I'm now making.

#2 Continuing on that line, I'm not sure I'd see enough improvement in my skills to warrent the purchase of these tools

#3 I love to work on Old Tools more then working with them. There I said it,m I guess I on the road to recovery?

[Alan DuBoff]

Deirdre, I think the support to Steve Knight is excellent, and in the example you give where the price is very similar, it absolutely makes sense.

I have to shamefully admit that I do not currently own any Knight planes, and hear nothing but good things about them. I do have them on my list of tools to acquire, and there are a couple I've got my eye on once I can get a new bench built specific for hand tool work.

Kevin, nothing wrong with liking to work on tools rather than working with them. We're all here for various reasons, and we all have different interests, I see nothing wrong with how each of us do that. On some forums, not this one per se, but on some of the others there seems to be a sense of "you're going about this wrong, you should do it this way". It is important to realize that many of us come from various backgrounds, various interests, and what does interest us all in wood is often different. There is nothing wrong with collecting tools, IMO. There is also nothing wrong with using them. There is somehow something wrong with a collector telling someone they shouldn't be using a tool, or by a woodworker telling a collector that they shouldn't collect them and/or fettle them.

Being able to live in harmony and realizing we're all different is yet the first step to co-existing with each other.

There was a time, not long ago, where few if any western style saws were being produced. Yet, this has changed and there are fine saws being made in western style once again. This is a good thing, and supporting the toolmakers that are making this possible is important. At the same time I like old saws also, and I would classify myself as a saw collector I 'spose, for better or worse.

I applaud the toolmakers worldwide, and try to support the ones I can. I also have a lot of old tools I love dearly...and wether old or new, it's nice to have a useful tool when needed.

[Kevin French]

The only hard and fast rule I have about spending a lot of money on a GOOD quality tool is, It's got to make a differance in skills.
Alan I see the opposite in my readings also. Someone who's obviously new to hand tools and is immediatly sent to LN, especially in terms of Dovetail saws and Hand Planes.
I'd prefer to see someone pick up a less expensive tool, try it, and find out if they like to work with hand tools. I think you'll learn more about WW'n by buying a $50 plane and $400 of lumber, then a $400 plane and $50 of lumber. Add to that I don't have a taste for bright shiney collections of tools. 60% of the tools I have are from the dump. With a bit of work they're ready for a new life.
I have taken some flack for my stand on buying tools. Doesn't bother me. Some day I will break down and open up the wallet. Right now I don't know what I'm missing and that's all right.
Having said all that, I agree with you, I like what I see in this Hand Tool revival. I like the increased use and availability of the new tools coming out. I push more people towards hand tools then I do tailed tools when asked how to do some thing.
There are enough people pushing the new, I want to be a voice for the old.

[Deirdre Saoirse Moen]

Well, I certainly agree that one shouldn't invest a lot before one decides on whether or not one is committed to a given hobby.

I own a couple of dovetail saws (and have a third -- LN -- on order), but then again, I decided to do a fair number of dovetails soon.

Honestly, I don't care whether a tool is old or new. I like the fact that I have some tools made by people I know (or, in the case of one user-made plane in my family, by my great-great-grandfather, whom I never met). Some people prefer old. Some people prefer new. I have a mix.

[Jim Becker]

I tend to "new", largely because I just don't have time to do what would be necessary to rehab an older tool unless someone else does it...I barely get shop time these days. The only "old" plane I own that is currently in use is a nice Stanley #4 that Terry Hatfield refurbished. I do have a Stanley #80 scraper I picked up at a yard sale, but still haven't had time to make it work well.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Hi Alan. Your post, and most of the responses seem to be from "users". I'd rather use an old tool than a new one and have way more than I could use, so I guess I collect them too. I purchase new ones when there aren't any similar old ones, such as the LN rabbet block plane, or the old ones are rare, like the LN nr. 9. I also prefer the LN versions which are similar to old tools rather than Lee Valley which seems high on the gizmocity factor. I think you can blend, and in all probability, have to blend the old with the new to take full advantage of what's out there.

[Jim Young]

I have some of both, like most. In reality the cost of an old tool that is in great condition cost roughly the same as a new one. For example a Bedrock that is in great condition will cost roughly the smae as it's comparable LN, just my observation. Like Jim Becker said, I want to spend as much time int he shop working on projects, not making old tools work. I can buy a LN, sharpen the blade and go work on a project. If I were to buy an old Stanley/Bedrock, chances are I will either spend alot of $$ on a very nice one or spend alot of time getting it nice.

Another thing for me to consider is that I'm not very good with hand tools yet. If I am having trouble using a tool I want to be sure its me. If I'm working with an old tool I have to question if its my technique or the tools.

[Doug Ketellapper]

The first handplanes I bought were a LN 60 1/2 and a LN 112. I think buying the LN block plane first was a good idea for me. I had the money, and it is a great tool right out of the box only needing a little honing. I got really good results with it with no fuss. The next handplane I bought was a #4 Anant, and it is junk, not much use in putting any effort into it either it is so poorly made. If that had been my first plane I think I might have given up on them. Since then I've gotten quite a few old planes; Stanleys, Sargents, and a bevy of what I call "funky planes" (Shelton, Trustworthy, Capewell etc. I like having them on the shelf and to try out.) I enjoy working on the old planes and getting them back into working shape, but having used a good "new" plane has made it easier to understand where I need to get with them since I don't have anyone to show me. I think having your first plane a high quality LN or LV or something similar (and a block or bench plane, the 112 is kind of hard to learn to use as a first plane) helps you understand how a good plane should operate, and removes some of the frustration factor in learning to use a new type of tool.

I don't think there's any right choice in the matter, other than avoiding the junk planes like the Anant was for me. Partly the issue will be price. If I was looking at buying a #1 or a #2 I'd definitely get a LN. I think we're lucky that we have the choices we do: a new LV quality plane, an old plane to fix up, or an old plane that's been refurbished to good working condition. We also have fine aftermarket irons of different types from several sources. All in all it's a pretty good winning situation.

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan I see the opposite in my readings also. Someone who's obviously new to hand tools and is immediatly sent to LN, especially in terms of Dovetail saws and Hand Planes.
I'd prefer to see someone pick up a less expensive tool, try it, and find out if they like to work with hand tools. I think you'll learn more about WW'n by buying a $50 plane and $400 of lumber, then a $400 plane and $50 of lumber. Add to that I don't have a taste for bright shiney collections of tools. 60% of the tools I have are from the dump. With a bit of work they're ready for a new life.

I have mixed feelings on this. I have many old saws that will work fine for dovetails. Most old saws have handles that are not tight, and most all of them need sharpening. The majority of folks lack the skills and tools to sharpen their own saws, or to fix the saw nuts properly. While a LN, Adria, Wenzloff & Sons, Norse, Spehar, TimHoff might seem like more $$$s, I believe that they get a person into a great tool without having to go through the hassle of finding a saw, doing the rehab on it, and especially do the sharpening and setting.

The other thing about saws is that there are very few dovetail style saws around, most of the saws that folks use are tenon saws. This works, no question, but I prefer the shorter blade, lower profile and finer teeth that make up a dovetail saw. The chances of finding one of these, even on ebay, is very limited, and the ones that do come up go for close to what a new quality saw sells for. For the amount of $$$s that a dovetail saw costs, I think it's a worthwhile investment to get a decent saw. I say this as someone who owns about 3 dozen saws, all of which are backsaws and will cut dovetails fine. I love to collect saws, but in the end I had Mike Wenzloff make me what I was looking for.

Additionally, I don't buy into the fine rip teeth being able to crosscut. Yes, you can do it, but it tears the grain up, and by using a crosscut saw you get a cleaner cut when cutting across the grain. If one wants a complete set of user saws, be prepared to have 2 of each size in gents, 8", 10", 12", 14", and 16". Then you can add a few others like 6" gent's saw with finer teeth. Saws are no different than chisels or planes, IMO, you really do need a full quiver of them to handle most situations.

I have taken some flack for my stand on buying tools. Doesn't bother me.

I wouldn't let it bother you at all, as I pointed out we're all here for a different reason. Best to get the enjoyment out of hand tools that they bring you, wether it be collecting or using, nobody should feel guilty if they do one or the other, or even both.

JimB, nothing wrong with buying new to get shop time, nothing wrong with it at all. Old tools do require fettlin' and it takes time to learn how to do it, as well as how to do it properly.

Dennis, I also tend to buy new tools that can function where an old one can't. I have a LN rabbet block plane, but I do like the LV tools. Rob Lee will only create tools where he can innovate, and most of their planes are an example of that. I like the adjustment mechanisms on their tools, and while I only have their router plane, I have used the BUS, BUJ, and a 4 1/2, and the LA and Standard block planes. I plan to get the bevel up smoother, and block planes. LV offers great product at fair prices, which is why so many folks buy them. It's not that I prefer the gizmocity, I think the mechanisms are superior to the old tools, and in some cases better than what LN provides, since LN planes are really copies of the vintage planes with improvements. LV planes are original designs. Innovation is good, and this helps the woodworking industry grow.

JimY, yeppers...I agree for the most part, but LN planes are quite costly compared to the vintage planes. I have a few vintage planes and they were quite a bit less than buying LN planes. Sure, I would love to have a complete set of LNs, but as a hobbyist I don't want to spend that kind of money on planes just yet. LV planes are priced a little more reasonably, and good quality also. I'm not sure I would compare Bedrocks, they seem to have more collector value than user value, in regards to how much more they cost than the standard Bailys. This is why I have been planning to buy a LV BUS, it has 3 blade options to make it pretty versatile. Most of my planes are specialty type planes, like a No 20 compass plane, router plane, No 48 t&g plane, No 78 (Craftsman, english version), 192, rabbet block plane, etc...but the 60 1/2, 4C, and 8 are my goto users at the moment.

Doug, you can't go wrong with a LN block plane, the block plane is the most used plane of all the ones I have. I have an old 60 1/2 that is a wonderful plane, but it required a LOT of time to get the blade flat and sharpened nicely. I would take a LN replacement any day though, but will probably opt for the LV block planes, I like the handle option for the LA block plane. My 60 1/2 is one of my favorite little planes. I just love the small size. I also have a 4C user, and a No 8 that was refurbished (some collectors frown on that, but I like the plane and will most likely keep it. (the bevel up jointer looks interesting from LV though).

[Derek Cohen]

Alan wrote a number of things...

<I>A lot of folks will stick to old tools, or others will stick to new tools, and many will claim that there is no justification in buying a new tool that costs quite a bit more. </I>

I have old tools that look old, old tools that look new, new tools, tools I have built, and tools I have restored. It is not the cost, per se, nor the vintage or the manufacturer that determines the purchase. There are clearly tools I would like to own but cannot afford, and tools I do own that others cannot afford. There are tools that have a high degree of use, and others that are used rarely since they are so specialist. Some have "character" and other have glamour.

I use all the tools I own. None wind up on a shelf to just look at. Some do wind up on a shelf until they are restored, but that is a different matter.

These tools do not make me a better woodworker - they just make me a happy one. If I were only to buy tools that improved my ability I'd have given up a long time ago! My tools are toys. The fact that I make a lot of stuff with them does not change this factor. So the question is what am I prepared to pay for my toys?

<I>the reality is that it takes time to make tools, and those toolmakers need to make enough to survive, and rightfully so.</I>

Absolutely! The trouble is that most seem to want or expect everything to be at a price that is similar to second hand, common Stanleys, and that is unrealistic. In our day jobs most of us sell the one commodity that is nearly priceless but we do put a price on it - that is Time. What is your time worth? Is this any different from that of others, others including toolmakers? Of course not. So if you expect others to pay for your time, then be prepared to pay for theirs. This is what I think you are saying, and I agree completely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan DuBoff]

Derek,

If I understand you correctly, you have all types of tools, and use the best tools that you can afford, or obtain. I have a wide variety of tools myself, and I do have some I don't use as I have a lot of saws. However, I will assemble about a dozen as my users. I know that sounds like a lot of saws, and it really does require one buys a lot of saws to find good ones (make them good ones in some cases;-). If I was only going to have one joinery saw, I'd pick a new dovetail saw, like a Wenzloff, LN, Adria, Spehar, Hoff, et al...because you can do most things with it. But I'm not in a position that I need to only use 1 saw, and can have a dozen users.

I don't know that any of my tools make me a better woodworker. They certainly help me do things I want to do with wood. So they make me more effecient in some cases. Most anything can be done with a chisel if you really wanted to...;-)

Absolutely! The trouble is that most seem to want or expect everything to be at a price that is similar to second hand, common Stanleys, and that is unrealistic. In our day jobs most of us sell the one commodity that is nearly priceless but we do put a price on it - that is Time. What is your time worth? Is this any different from that of others, others including toolmakers? Of course not. So if you expect others to pay for your time, then be prepared to pay for theirs. This is what I think you are saying, and I agree completely.

Yes, that was certainly something I was yappin' about. And for the folks that do produce fine tools, I not only don't mind, but enjoy when I can buy them. I like nice tools, old or new, and the makers that do make fine tools deserve the prices they ask in a lot (i.e., most) cases. I agree that a lot of of folks want/expect the price to be what a similar second hand tools costs. Yes, it is unrealistic. At the same time the equivilant second hand tool can and does provide folks with tools to do some of the same function which more expensive tools do. Choice is good, and I have both types myself.

[Mike Wenzloff]

I have old tools that look old, old tools that look new, new tools, tools I have built, and tools I have restored. It is not the cost, per se, nor the vintage or the manufacturer that determines the purchase. There are clearly tools I would like to own but cannot afford, and tools I do own that others cannot afford. There are tools that have a high degree of use, and others that are used rarely since they are so specialist. Some have "character" and other have glamour.

I was going to quote less of Derek's post, but I wouldn't have been able to put it better.

Take care, Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm a mixed bagger myself. I have old, new, and tools I've made. Except for some inherited large carpenters and shipwrights chisels which don't fit the scale of my projects I use everything I have. Admittedly some of my tools only get used on rare conditions, but nothing just sits on the shelf all of the time.

Sometimes for someone just starting out in woodworking the old vs new decision becomes analogous to the chicken vs the egg quandry. If you buy old you might not have the skills or knowledge to pick a good tool and you don't have the experience to know how to fettle it to make it work well. Similarly, the same will often apply to most new tools from the makers like Anant, Kunz, modern day Stanley, Buck Brothers, and a host of others. Rather than going to the expense of buying top makers, it is better to try and seek out a mentor or mentors who can guide you and teach a little about choices and operating technique. A mentor can help you avoid purchasing that cast iron paperweight with a tote, and blade than wouldn't cut butter. He or she can show you what sharp is and how to get there with minimal cost and effort. Books and the internet can act as a surrogate mentor to some extent, but only a few false starts and lots of time and effort expended will substitute for someone standing by your shoulder guiding you and giving continuous instantaneous feedback.

I learned how to do masonry from a book years ago, but I was VERY slow and inefficent and made some stupid mistakes. A few hours watching a mason work and pestering him with questions about why he did certain things did wonders for both my speed and the quality of my results.