Another DC Question

[Jim Chilenski]

I have been reading the messages on dust collectors on this site but haven't been able to find an answer to my question, so here it goes.

I have a Delta Model 50-181 Two-Stage dust collector. This unit was built for Delta by Cincinnati Fan and is sold by them as their model 200S. It has the following specs.

Motor HP 2
Max CFM 1100 (Maximun CFM at 0" SP with 5 feet of 6" hose)
Max SP 8 1/2" (Maximun SP at which no air flow)
Fan Dia 12 1/4"
AMPS 230V 5.6
Filter Bag 18 SqFt 5 micron

All of my 24 feet of duct work is 6" in diameter and I use short sections of 6" flex hose to connect to each machine. Currently when I use the system a lot of particles end up it the filter bag. This may be happening because I do not have the fiber drum for this system and use a rubbermaid barrel instead. The fiber drum would have sides that are straight up and down where as the Rubbermaid barrel's sides taper in at the bottom. This may be contributing to the large particles being sucked through the fan and into the filter bag. I would like to add a cyclone in front of this unit to try and remove more of the fine dust particles and chips before they get to the filter.

Now my question. Does this unit, from the specs above, have enough umph to be used with a cyclone like the clear view? Or using Bill Pentz's specs could a cyclone be built that would work? What throws me is the 1100 CFM with 5' of 6" hose. This seems to be above the CFM of the units tested in FWW.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Becker]

If you are getting blow-by on a two stage system, that's a sign of an air leak between the bottom of the separator and the bin.

[Jim Chilenski]

Jim, you've lost me there. This is a two stage system where the blower unit and the input and output are part of the lid which sits on top of the barrel or drum. Since I have weather stripping around the edge of the lid sealing it to the barrel, and there isn't a crack in either the lid or the barrel, I don't know where there could be an air leak.

Here is a link to a picture of the unit.

http://www.cincinnatifan.com/DustCollector.html

In this picture they show the unit on a 55 gallon drum which only has a diameter of 22 inches. That is why I use a Rubbermaid barrel because it has a diameter of 24 inches and fits tightly, with the weather stripping, to the lid.

Thanks,
Jim

[Mac McAtee]

Without a cyclone you are going to get materal that by passes the barrel. A cyclone is much more efficent at separating the wheat from the chafe. Build a cyclone, not hard to do.

[Jim Chilenski]

Mac, I agree. But is my blower powerful enough to use with a cyclone? And if it is, will it work with the Clearvue, or can I build one that would be efficient with this blower? I really would like to avoid buying another blower to use a cyclone. I could just live with having to empty the filter bag every other week.

Thanks,
Jim

[Steven Wilson]

It would be much better if the fan diameter was 14" or above, 12 1/2" is a bit small. You could try the small cyclone from Oneida, they use to make one for retrofit installations. Give them a call and see what kind of numbers it would make with your system.

[Bill Pentz]

Jim,

My apologies for the dissention in the prior posts, but Ken as moderator did an excellent job helping with this ongoing problem. I just wish Ken had not been forced to step in.

I do know a bit about your dust collector as I owned an exact twin. Cincinnati Fan made these in a range of sizes from 1/3 hp to 5 hp models (check out http://www.cincinnatifan.com/pdfs/PMD1203.pdf for exact specifications), plus for various customers they also made these with aluminum blowers and impellers. Delta, RBI, and a few other firms also sold these same units under their own brand names. Although a few copies such as the Granger used Dayton blowers, most were configured with Cincinnati blowers and customer supplied motors. My 200S used the Cincinnati Fan aluminum blower housing and aluminum impeller wheel, but most used the Cincinnati steel blower housing and impeller. The steel is tougher than the aluminum housings and impellers, but not quite as efficient at moving air, plus has a higher startup load because of the extra weight. A few vendors still sell these identical units, but commercial prices tend to be high in the $800 plus range for your 2 hp sized unit. They perform so well that even used and surplus units of this size command $400 plus sale prices.

This unit was engineered well before the 1989 OSHA fine dust collection requirement for large woodworking facilities went into place. In other words, it was engineered to be and remains an excellent “chip collector”. That means it does a great job of picking up the sawdust and chips that we would otherwise sweep up with a broom. It also predated and probably helped to spawn the trashcan separator lids. These work well with lower airflows but not so well with the larger ducting and airflows. I know on my unit when I choked it down with the supplied reducer to use of 4” pipe it was a champ and put almost all the sawdust and chips into the bin with nothing but fine dust going into the filter. When I shifted to a 6” hose directly connected to a tool with hoods that supported good airflow, that additional air movement scoured my dust bin empty filling my filter with all but larger sticks and blocks.

I played with my unit quite a bit adding a 90 degree elbow inside that forced the air to cycle around the outside of the bin. That made a big difference, but just not enough as the filter still kept filling. I also changed out the filter to a much finer oversized American Fabric Filter (AFF) fine bag. That made a big difference in total airflow. The finer strands in that filter provide better filtering, but also put so much less surface area in the way of the airflow they move the air with less than half of the resistance. Below is a picture from my web pages to try and help. A taller straighter barrel also helped.



I tried powering my cyclone with an 18” diameter with my blower in a pull through configuration. Although it worked, there was a problem in the extra resistance added by the cyclone having to work so hard to turn the air in its tight separation spiral that it really degraded the airflow. I was getting a real 1000+ CFM with the 6” before adding the cyclone and after did not even get 800 CFM.

The good news is when I did this work was early on in my cyclone adventures, so I now know a little more about how to make repair. If you can find one of the 13” impellers it will fit in that same blower housing and give you extra pressure to overcome some of the high resistance of your cyclone. Likewise, instead of making my standard 18” cyclone design, use a 22" cyclone that sacrifices a little separation efficiency in trade for reduced resistance. Although you can buy inexpensive cyclones that would work fairly well if you can blow the dusty air away outside, if you plan on filtering then I would suggest making or buying my cyclone design. Larger diameter cyclones have lower resistance because they do not need to turn the air in as tight of a spiral. So with that bigger diameter cyclone and upgraded impeller that blower will give you over 800 CFM with ample pressure to wheel the unit between machines.

Because the bigger diameter makes for a taller cyclone, most end up needing to mount the blower apart from the cyclone instead of on top. I know of a few who have modified standard dust collector filter trees to hold a cyclone with bin below, then power that unit with the blower to the side creating a cyclone system that rolls around like a portable dust collector. The easiest way to power the cyclone without the blower on top in a pull through configuration is to make it a push through with the blower blowing into the cyclone. I prefer to protect my blower impellers from the material hits with a pull through configuration. I show some ways to pull the air from the cyclone side instead of the top on my pages.

With all this said, do I think it is a good idea? The answer is a firm reluctant maybe because it depends upon if you can get that larger impeller at a good price and are willing to live with lower separation and minimal ducting. I personally finally gave up on mine and built my own cyclone. These are great units that are in fairly high demand. I sold mine for nearly enough to cover the cost of my cyclone and blower parts including motor but not filters.

Edited to clarify the specifications for this unit and explain it can be used for either pull through or push through configurations.

[Jim Chilenski]

Bill,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my question. I have admired your work and dedication to the hobby wood working community since I first discovered your web pages two years ago. Thank you also for clearing up one thing that has been confusing me for sometime. That the larger the diameter of a cyclone, the less airflow needed for good separation. Because of the appearence of the 'shop vac' cyclones that are smaller in diameter, I assumed that a smaller cyclone would require less airflow, not more. This is why I was interested in the ClearVue cyclone and hoping to be able to use it as a pull thru type. You have cleared that up for me.

Would it be possible to build a 24" diameter cyclone, especially since my two stage unit has a 24" diameter lid, that would also be as effective as the 22" unit you describe on your web page?

I too have added the elbow from Cincinnati fan inside the unit to try and improve the separation, with the same poor results. You have also confirmed that my use of a tapered wall barrel may be contributing some to my problem. I may try to find a 65 gallon fiber drum which has a 24" diameter with straight sides, and maybe even try connecting two of them together one on top of the other to see if that improves the separation.

My hope is that I could get the separation good enough that I would then feel comfortable replacing the 5 micron bag with a cartridge filter that would increase the amount of surface area allowing for better air flow while providing filtration down to 1 micron. I need to filter my air because I can't afford to pump 1000 CFM of heat outside during the Ohio winters.

If not then my best possible solution, while keeping the same blower unit, would be to build your 22" cyclone and use my blower for a pull thru system.

When you were working with your Cincinnati Fan unit did you ever try their 3hp filter bag which attaches to a garbage can and is hung from a ceiling mount? Even though its only 5 micron filtration I was interested in it because of the sheer amount of surface area it offered.

Thanks again!
Jim

[Alan DuBoff]

Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but the one thing I haven't seen discussed recently is if one was content to use a single stage canister type DC, could build one themself with a 3HP or 5HP motor and create tremendous suction? Seems that most products change to a 2 stage when they get to 3HP.

I think I would be ok to hook a hose to each machine, to be able to have a simpler solution, rather than dwelling on a cyclone. Although, a cyclone with a direct hose might be a good solution, that would have to suck! I could always add ducting in later.

Is there something wrong with that concept, or is a cyclone not good for that purpose, connected directly to the tool?

[Jim Becker]

Jim, you've lost me there. This is a two stage system where the blower unit and the input and output are part of the lid which sits on top of the barrel or drum. Since I have weather stripping around the edge of the lid sealing it to the barrel, and there isn't a crack in either the lid or the barrel, I don't know where there could be an air leak.

Sorry...I was in a hurry and didn't take the time to look up the unit. I do recall that others with similar units have sometimes posted about blow-by. Don't assume that weather stripping is giving you a seal...this is one reason that most commercial cyclone setups have a lid on the bin that clamps on.

I don't know much about your system, but see that Bill has posted some good experiential information on it.

[Bob Dodge]

I have been reading the messages on dust collectors on this site but haven't been able to find an answer to my question, so here it goes.

I have a Delta Model 50-181 Two-Stage dust collector. This unit was built for Delta by Cincinnati Fan and is sold by them as their model 200S. It has the following specs.

Motor HP 2
Max CFM 1100 (Maximun CFM at 0" SP with 5 feet of 6" hose)
Max SP 8 1/2" (Maximun SP at which no air flow)
Fan Dia 12 1/4"
AMPS 230V 5.6
Filter Bag 18 SqFt 5 micron

All of my 24 feet of duct work is 6" in diameter and I use short sections of 6" flex hose to connect to each machine. Currently when I use the system a lot of particles end up it the filter bag. This may be happening because I do not have the fiber drum for this system and use a rubbermaid barrel instead. The fiber drum would have sides that are straight up and down where as the Rubbermaid barrel's sides taper in at the bottom. This may be contributing to the large particles being sucked through the fan and into the filter bag. I would like to add a cyclone in front of this unit to try and remove more of the fine dust particles and chips before they get to the filter.

Now my question. Does this unit, from the specs above, have enough umph to be used with a cyclone like the clear view? Or using Bill Pentz's specs could a cyclone be built that would work? What throws me is the 1100 CFM with 5' of 6" hose. This seems to be above the CFM of the units tested in FWW.

Thanks,
Jim

Jim,

You're talking about the now discontinued 2 stage dc's made for Delta, and Dust-Boy. Dayton blower if I remember correctly. With that 12 1/4" impeller, you should have plenty of suction for 6" drops, if they're properly balanced and designed. You would not want to use a blower like this, in a standard pull-through mode, like you see on most cyclones. Use it in Push-through mode, and you'll be ok. In otherwords, you'd connect a short exhaust duct, to your cyclone inlet. What size outlet does your blower have?

Regarding hooking up your ducts, you'd dismount the blower from the drum you're now using, and connect the pipe directly to that blower's intake. I'd need a few more specifics regarding your inlet and outlet diameters.

Another option, would be to make a simple box-plenum, and sit that on a drum. Cut a hole in the top, to mount a filter, and cut a hole in the bottom, to feed waste into the drum. Exhaust your blower into the side of that plenum, and down into the drum.

Bob

[Jim Chilenski]

Jim, I understand. No one can know every unit on the market. If I can make this work I'll try to attach a picture of my system.

Dust Collector.jpg


The clear 4" hose hanging in front is not connected and is used to connect my planer to my duct work. The lid because it weighs around 80 pounds seals tightly against the weather stripping that I have on the top lip of the Rubbermaid barrel. There is also weather stripping on the inside of the vertical lip of the lid as well.

Thanks,
Jim

[Bob Dodge]

http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1710

Here's your dc. Look at the reduction they're using on the outlet. You'd want to get rid of that reduction.

Bob

PS. On your shop-built plenum, you could mount a cannister filter on top of the plenum. Your call.

[Jim Chilenski]

Bob,

Thanks for your suggestions. That link that you posted does indeed show my collector, but mine never did have the reducer that they are showing. Mine has a 6" inlet and a 6" exhaust directly into the filter bag. I've posted a picture of the collector in one of my responses, (don't want to repeat it and eat up space on this web server). If you look closely you can see the collector and my duct work in the following photo along with one of my home made blast gates. The 4" hose that is hanging in front of the drop ducts isn't connected to anything.

Thanks,
Jim

Saw and Collector.jpg

[Bob Dodge]

Jim,

That blower, if you look closely, has a 5.6 amp motor, despite having a 12 1/4" impeller. It's probably designed as a low-resistance set-up. Yes, it will move a fair amount of air, but only if the resistance is not too high. Otherwise, you'd overload the motor.

You probably have plenty of suction if you just exhaust into that shop-built plenum I described. With a cartridge filter on top of that plenum, you'll reduce outlet resistance compared to your present small bag. You'll also get far better filtration.

You'll also reduce suction-side losses, because you'll not have your blower mounted on it's present drum. That drum gives you resistance, and you'd be better off using that resistance for your pipes.

Instead of having the blower sitting on that drum, just build an open stand, like a small table. Cut a hole slightly larger than the blower inlet, and sit your blower on that table. Connect a 6" pipe to the inlet, and run it down, under that table, and across to your saw's base.

At the saw-base, run a 4" take-off to the base, (6x4x4 wye) then run the other 4" branch to your overarm blade-cover.

I'm having trouble seeing details on your picture. It's a small pic, so if you will e-mail me a copy, I'll be able to see it better. Or maybe, send it to my "private messages". I could then perhaps "zoom" in.

Bob