Tool and Dust Collection Paid Advice

[Bill Pentz]

Because I am fairly well known vendors keep offering to pay me money if I will mention their names in my posts and pay me even more if I will include links to their web pages. They offer on average $0.03 for every person who reads a thread where I mention the firm’s name in my post. If I include a link to that vendor’s web pages they pay $0.06 for each person that clicks on the link, plus 3% to 10% commission if the person buys within thirty days. These vendors also promised that their current monitoring software never requires me to post a link with a giveaway ID showing I am being paid for my recommendations. They also gave me names of some very popular, very high volume posters saying each generates about $50 off each major forum thread from the name and links, plus upwards of $2K a month in commissions. I keep turning them down because I think what they request is unethical. Many of the larger forums permanently ban these people, especially if they quote other member advice as their own. What do you think?

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Because I am fairly well known vendors keep offering to pay me money if I will mention their names in my posts and pay me even more if I will include links to their web pages. They offer on average $0.03 for every person who reads a thread where I mention the firm’s name in my post. If I include a link to that vendor’s web pages they pay $0.06 for each person that clicks on the link, plus 3% to 10% commission if the person buys within thirty days. These vendors also promised that their current monitoring software never requires me to post a link with a giveaway ID showing I am being paid for my recommendations. They also gave me names of some very popular, very high volume posters saying each generates about $50 off each major forum thread from the name and links, plus upwards of $2K a month in commissions. I keep turning them down because I think what they request is unethical. Many of the larger forums permanently ban these people, especially if they quote other member advice as their own. What do you think?

I'd have to say that I'm very glad that you are so generous with you time and with your results, I know I breathe easier for it.

I'm not at all surprised at this information, all most any business is all about advertising.

I think it is sad that someone would take money in this way on this or any other forum, but, I guess there is nothing we can do about it.

Cheers!

[Jamie Buxton]

Celebrity endorsement deals are big. For instance, Tiger Woods makes a bunch of money endorsing Buick, and Eva Longoria advertises some brand of make-up. Nobody accuses them of unethical behavior -- maybe because everybody understands they're just acting as attention-grabbers, rather than seriously believing these products are really better than the competition.

[Tom Hamilton]

Bill, it seems to me your integrity and trustworthiness is earned from your experience, knowledge and willingness to share the same.

Earning some income from your experience and knowledge is the America way; however to me, earning income as an author, consultant or speaker seems more appropriate than as a "fellow Creeker" just posting and sharing.

Perhaps if paid posters filed a disclaimer with each post, identifing their paid relationships, it would put it in the proper perspective.

In any event, I have read your web site for several years, am in the trail of a cyclone for my shop, and want to thank you for the effort you made to educate me, and probably thousands of other woodworkers.

Well done, Bill.


Best regards, Tom in Houston moving toward reduced dust in his shop thanks to Bill Pence.


PS: Does the Creek require paid posters to ID themselves?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill

I see no problem recommending someone's products as long as you truly believe in the quality of their products. If you don't believe in their products...then I'd think I'd have a moral problem.

I, also, think in the TOS of this site....there could be a hitch......

But if you came to this site and recommended someone visit your website for a recommendation.....and tell people they can find your website by going to your user CP.....hey.........I'd think this would not violate the TOS.

Personally....I wouldn't recommend something unless I truly believed the product or services performed as advertised.

JMHO.....

[rick fulton]

Bill -

I commend you for your integrity. Based on your excellent web site and your respected forum contributions I would not have expected your decision to be different.

But, if you truly believe one product is superior to the others, is accepting money from that vendor really all that bad? Assuming it does not sway your judgment when a better product comes along.

I wonder if any high posters on this forum accept these offers. How could one find out?

rick

[Mike Henderson]

My first thought was, "Why not collect if you were going to recommend them anyway?" But the more I thought about it, I realized that the payment would have a corrupting effect, no matter how you tried to counter it.

And then the opposite might occur. You might go overboard and NOT recommend something because you want to make sure you’re not being influenced by the payment.

Either way, you’re not giving an unbiased opinion. Best to stay untainted.

There was a famout New York politican - don't remember, maybe the mayor - who was approached by people who wanted to bribe him. He threw them out with the words, “Get out! Get out now before you reach my price.”

Mike

[Chuck Saunders]

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. If brand X is what worked for me then I will clearly identify brand X. If it didn't work I would be equally clear. I would and have recommended Bill's Site as I think that the information is provided in my best interest, thank you Bill. Fortunately fewer people are interested in my endorsements than in my opinion and there are not many there either. The ethics in question is not the mentioning of a name or product but rather in trading your credibility for cash. Usually this behavior becomes fairly obvious. It would be an interesting experiment to see how many times you actually mention a vendor without purposely doing so. Interesting peek into how the other half lives (advertisers)

[Dev Emch]

Wow! You mean I can get paid for having a big mouth? This is great. How do I sign up for this service? There are few folks who know the inner workings of most machines as well I do.......


Oh wait, you mean the company paying the cash bucks still needs to be in business. Opps. Knew there was a catch somewhere.


Seriously, you need to do your own sole searching. In my own case, when I tell folks to go get an oliver table saw or northfield or porter jointer, they know I am sincere for two reasons.

1). Come on over and check out my barn. You will see that I practice what I preach.

2). Most of the best companies are sadly no longer with us. So you know I am not working as a compensated endorser.

[M. A. Espinoza]

As long as there is disclosure then it seems fine. I think it would cause many people to take the information presented "with a grain of salt".

Without dislosure it seems unethical to offer what is supposed to be an opinion that is actually a paid testimonial or endorsement.

I heard a news piece recently regarding a similar type of marketing of people paid to walk in busy areas having "conversations" extolling the virtues of item "X". A compensated post recommending an item in a woodworking forum has the same angle it seems. Didn't these people used to be called a "shill"

Regarding your Mr. Pentz situation specifically it gets a little more foggy. He has done a tremendous amount of research and given free access to all his information. Really seems he is deserving of compensation as usually this would be done as R & D to bring something to market. But if he wants to share the information that is his choice.

I suppose Mr. Pentz could just archive his information into downloadable .pdf files and charge a small fee for each download. Fine Woodworking does something similar for their article archives.

I appreciate Mr. Pentz disclosing the offers he has recieved, I had no idea that web marketing was using the methods he described.

[Andy London]

In your case Bill and having known you online since this all started and knowing your history, and amazied at the research you have done, I think you should be paid for your efforts based on your personal situation. I think that I know you well enough that the dollar would not swing your opinion at all, you are pretty black and white in this area and I think the extra bit of income you would receive would go a long way for you and your family.

Andy

[Doug Shepard]

I for one am glad the ethics of this bothers you a bit and you're staying independent. One of the reasons outfits like Consumer Reports have gained the respect of readers is by not accepting paid advertising or pulling any punches when it comes to reviews. I also believe you should be paid for your efforts but in a different way. It makes more sense to me for a company to pay you for design consultation and actually improve their products. That way you could recommend Brand X with a clear conscience, consumers would get better dust collectors, and everybody wins. Just my 2 cents.

[Rick Doyle]

hi bill,

your post gave me a great idea - maybe i can approach a few of these vendors and get them to pay me if i 'DON'T' mention their names in my posts?

anyway, paying posters in forums is a new one on me - i'd never heard of that before! i use affiliate ads on my website but it's up to any visitor to choose whether or not to click on them or not. it really doesn't add up to much because i have a relatively small visitor count but the commissions do help to pay for isp's and webhosting etc. but in your case, i think the revenue could be significant and i think you should definitely consider it.

like a few previous posters have said, the only ethical question to me is whether you believe and support the vendors and products you recommend - i am sure you would so i don't see a problem at all.

i mean right now, we are obviously giving financial support to people who we are completely unaware of. so, why not give that same type of support to those we do know and trust - like you? go for it!!

[Jim O'Dell]

This type of compensation came to my attention in a private post about a year ago. I was a little surprised at first that this went on behind the scenes, then thought that someone was pretty smart who started it. Can't say they are very ethical.... but smart, yes.
This is different than the advertising that celebrities or actors do to promote a product. It is clear that they are advertising something. If someone on this forum sent me a PM that said if I was interested in XY product, please go to their web site and click on a certain link to order, I wouldn't be totally opposed to that. I wouldn't want to be bombarded everyday with solicitations from multiple people, but again this would be up front and I would know what and why they were pushing something. I'm not real fond of people pushing a product but hiding the benefits they receive. I hope that's not happening on this forum, but then I'm not going to be naive about it either.
I also want to thank Bill for his efforts to warn all of us about the dangers of the fine dust in woodworking. I know that he receives a small fee for every Clear Vue that is sold, not just the people he recommends it to. That is clear on both his and Ed's websites, and to me that is "JUST" compensation for the research and development Bill put into his design. If the other major players had done the same thing, or just paid a consulting fee to Bill for helping them with product development, I think that would have been great also. I'm glad Bill received a little for the Clear Vue that I purchased. One of the days (hopefully soon!) I'm going to get the electricity turned on so I can get mine running! No, I DON'T receive any compensation for the opinions I post. But then they don't carry much weight, either. I'm sure you've all noticed that I haven't published any project pictures yet. Jim.

[tod evans]

bill, your moral turpitude is bright-n-clear....thanks for chipping in your.02!

.02 tod