Birth of a shop

[tod evans]

marty, if you bought unfaced fiberglass it won`t hurt it to get slightly damp, like what may leak through the seams. if it`s faced the kraft paper could be damaged( big deal!) it`s floor insulation in georgia afterall. and the underside of the insulation will be open to the enviornment so it`ll dry out...not so with cellouse! tod

[Randy Moore]

Marty,

Good looking design, I wish my shop was that big but mine is approx 20 x 20 and in my basement.

How do you plan on getting to the attic? I am a sheet metal worker who has had to take old furnaces/A. C. systems out of some tight spaces or up/down some way to steep steps. I hope that you will put in some steps that can handle a load. Air compressor ain't light either.

Again good looking shop

Randy

[Marty Walsh]

marty, if you bought unfaced fiberglass it won`t hurt it to get slightly damp, like what may leak through the seams. if it`s faced the kraft paper could be damaged( big deal!) it`s floor insulation in georgia afterall. and the underside of the insulation will be open to the enviornment so it`ll dry out...not so with cellouse! tod

Tod,

I spec'ed unfaced, but the supply house sent me kraft for the same price. I didn't complain. I hadn't planned to staple the paper to the joists though, (never could understand why you'd do that and then try to have construction adhesive stick to the joist with the paper in the way). I have hanger rods that get installed below it and support it.

The more I think about it, installing it before the decking goes on is probably less strain and stress on me, since I can do it standing up instead of crawling around with the insulation over my head. I need to decide in the next few days since I'm not far from that step.

I guess you're right about it drying out since it'll be exposed from below. Maybe I'm over-worrying...?

I'd just like to avoid that whole tarp nightmare if at all possible ...

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

Good looking design, I wish my shop was that big but mine is approx 20 x 20 and in my basement.

How do you plan on getting to the attic? I am a sheet metal worker who has had to take old furnaces/A. C. systems out of some tight spaces or up/down some way to steep steps. I hope that you will put in some steps that can handle a load. Air compressor ain't light either.

Again good looking shop

Randy

Randy,

Thanks. Like I said early on in this post, I have the room, and have always outgrown any shop I had before. I have the chance to do this now, so why not...?

As for attic access, I spoke with the HVAC guy a few days ago. I showed him my updated plans which include the attic space, since I first went to him with a 4:12 roof and no attic. Since the trusses are 24 o.c., I plan to spread a pair out to 30" and install large attic stairs. He said that would be fine since they usually take out the coils from the air-handler before moving it in place anyway.

In addition, Denise had an idea that has me toying with the idea of having the truss company modify the gable end truss on one side to incorporate a door akin to what you'd find on a hay mow. I'll be talking to the truss folks soon and will see what they think. I'll be sure to post an update once that conversation takes place. But even without that door, I'm hoping the stairs will suffice.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[Jim Becker]

I spec'ed unfaced, but the supply house sent me kraft for the same price. I didn't complain. I hadn't planned to staple the paper to the joists though, (never could understand why you'd do that and then try to have construction adhesive stick to the joist with the paper in the way). I have hanger rods that get installed below it and support it.

Unless you're installing it from above...no staples...as the kraft paper needs to be on the floor side. The wire hangers are generally enough to hold it up, although I suggest you also string wire/cable/chicken-wire/strapping/whatever to insure nothing drops out over time since it's not an enclosed space like a crawl space. Chicken wire would also help keep out the larger critters from below.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Marty, This is the first time I have been on the internet since last Thursday, so I had a lot of reading to do to catch up with all that you have done simce then. Nice job, and I particularly like your water level.

I would certainly advise keeping all material, with the possible exception of pressure treated wood, under cover.

I would put down the floor insulation first. Are you using the fine galvized mesh under the insulation like I did? If you are, I would put that in place before the insulation.

I guess that it is too late for you, but I used rock wool insulation rather than fibergalss for my shop. It can get a little wet without damage and critters don't like it very much.

[Marty Walsh]

Unless you're installing it from above...no staples...as the kraft paper needs to be on the floor side. The wire hangers are generally enough to hold it up, although I suggest you also string wire/cable/chicken-wire/strapping/whatever to insure nothing drops out over time since it's not an enclosed space like a crawl space. Chicken wire would also help keep out the larger critters from below.

Jim,

I think I'm going to be installing it from above. I had thought to install from below, after I have the roof up, just to protect it from the elements, but I'm thinking that's more trouble than it's worth!

In addition to the wire hangers, I'm following Frank's lead and stapling 1/4" galv hardware cloth under all the trusses. I know all too well how the critters around here like insulation!!

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

Hi Marty, This is the first time I have been on the internet since last Thursday, so I had a lot of reading to do to catch up with all that you have done simce then. Nice job, and I particularly like your water level.

I would certainly advise keeping all material, with the possible exception of pressure treated wood, under cover.

I would put down the floor insulation first. Are you using the fine galvized mesh under the insulation like I did? If you are, I would put that in place before the insulation.

I guess that it is too late for you, but I used rock wool insulation rather than fibergalss for my shop. It can get a little wet without damage and critters don't like it very much.

Hi Frank,

Yeah, Tod's idea of the water level worked out GREAT! (So good in fact, that I returned my fancy laser level!!!)

As for keeping everything covered, I'm hoping the Advantech sheathing I'm using for the floor, and the 2x6's for the framing, will withstand an occasional downpour. If it looks like we're going to get some sustained rain, I'll plan to get everything I can under cover. But Frank, here's yet another example of my scaling your shop up. Covering this structure is NO EASY task!!! Those pictures show two tarps that are 60'x40', and another that's 40'x20', and I still didn't have enough!

I guess I just cross my fingers and hope the hurricane season slows down until I get a roof up!

Yes, I'm using the 1/4" galvanized hardware cloth...thanks for the idea. One major difference is that I can get it stapled in place quite a bit easier than you did. In the front of the shop, I'll have to lay down to get it done, but as I work towards the back, I can do it almost standing upright. I remember the hassle you faced, and the inventive way you tackled it!

The current plan is to install the I-Joists, staple the hardware cloth under them, then install the wire hangers followed by the insulation. I'm trying to get as much done as I can by the weekend so I can have the Advantech delivered on Monday. We'll see how it goes...

Oh, and around here, for whatever reason, rock wool is unheard of. It would be a very special order, and the price would reflect it! The price on fiberglass is outrageous enough!!

Thanks for stopping by. I hope to have a lot more done for your next visit...
- Marty -

[Phil Maddox]

Absolutely Awesome!!!

You seemed to have a great plan for everything.

One question, do I understand that you will not be enclosing the bottom (exposed) of the floor system and just covering it with wire? That sounds like a breeding ground for bugs and such. I would also want some more protection from moisture than that.

Good luck!!!

Phil

[Marty Walsh]

Absolutely Awesome!!!

You seemed to have a great plan for everything.

One question, do I understand that you will not be enclosing the bottom (exposed) of the floor system and just covering it with wire? That sounds like a breeding ground for bugs and such. I would also want some more protection from moisture than that.

Good luck!!!

Phil

Phil,

Thanks, I've been planning this adventure for quite some time. It's exciting to see my plans come to life...exhausting, but exciting!

You have it right. I'm leaving the bottom of the floor trusses open, except for 1/4" galvanized hardware cloth, with 9" insulation in the cavaties. It should keep the critters from mouse size on up at bay. It should even deter all but the smallest of snakes around here. As for the bugs, there's little I could hope to do. This is southern Georgia afterall!

By the way, the idea of leaving the space open has been discussed. Frank led the way for me in his thread here. Thanks Frank...

Seriously, I'll either have the underside professionally sprayed, or do it myself. And since I have relatively easy access to the entire underside, I can treat it as frequently as necessary.

Thanks for following...
- Marty -

[edit] Oh, and don't forget that there's 6mil plastic under that 11 ton of gravel. It seems to be providing an excellent vabor barrier, even with all the rain we just got. We'll see...

[tod evans]

Tod,

I spec'ed unfaced, but the supply house sent me kraft for the same price. I didn't complain. I hadn't planned to staple the paper to the joists though, (never could understand why you'd do that and then try to have construction adhesive stick to the joist with the paper in the way). I have hanger rods that get installed below it and support it.

The more I think about it, installing it before the decking goes on is probably less strain and stress on me, since I can do it standing up instead of crawling around with the insulation over my head. I need to decide in the next few days since I'm not far from that step.

I guess you're right about it drying out since it'll be exposed from below. Maybe I'm over-worrying...?

I'd just like to avoid that whole tarp nightmare if at all possible ...

- Marty -

marty, since you`re installing screen wire under the tgi`s i wouldn`t bother with the hanger wires. i`d also return the kraft faced insulation and use unfaced just `cause if it does get wet during construction the fiberglass will dry much faster than the kraft paper. the idea of a door in the gable end is ingenious! how `bout a landing and staircase for outside access? even a steel beam cantalevered out past the landing to winch heavy objects up to landing height? keep the posts comming! tod

[Jim Becker]

Tod, many retail suppliers don't bother to stock un-faced insulation in any kind of quantity these days outside of R25 blankets. That's probably why Marty's supplier substituted the kraft-faced material. That said, they should be able to order it from their wholesale supplier if they really want to or Marty asks them to.

[Marty Walsh]

Tod, many retail suppliers don't bother to stock un-faced insulation in any kind of quantity these days outside of R25 blankets. That's probably why Marty's supplier substituted the kraft-faced material. That said, they should be able to order it from their wholesale supplier if they really want to or Marty asks them to.

Jim,

I thought I'd check the creek for updates while I wait for my supplier to call me back about the WRONG SIMPSON BRACKETS THEY SENT ME!!! I didn't bother checking when they made the delivery, since I was too busy checking all the large stuff. My bad...

Jim, you're right about them not stocking unfaced. That's why they sent me the kraft. Is it enough of an issue for me to have them special order me unfaced and delay my progress? I understand the issue of the paper possibly getting wet. I'm just not sure HOW much of an issue it might be.

Thanks...
- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, since you`re installing screen wire under the tgi`s i wouldn`t bother with the hanger wires. i`d also return the kraft faced insulation and use unfaced just `cause if it does get wet during construction the fiberglass will dry much faster than the kraft paper. the idea of a door in the gable end is ingenious! how `bout a landing and staircase for outside access? even a steel beam cantalevered out past the landing to winch heavy objects up to landing height? keep the posts comming! tod

Tod,

Hey, I like the idea of a landing and stairs to the landing. And the idea of a steel beam is a good one too! But, I need to think about how to support that steel beam, since it really can't be hung from the trusses.

However, I'm still on the fence about the door idea. I'm trying to think through the issue of sealing that door. Since my HVAC air handler will be up there, and there will be attic stairs to the shop below, I'm not sure I want a potentially un-sealable door at the end of the attic.

I need to think this through a little more...but thanks for kicking Denise's idea 'up a notch'

- Marty -

[Marty Walsh]

marty, since you`re installing screen wire under the tgi`s i wouldn`t bother with the hanger wires. i`d also return the kraft faced insulation and use unfaced just `cause if it does get wet during construction the fiberglass will dry much faster than the kraft paper. the idea of a door in the gable end is ingenious! how `bout a landing and staircase for outside access? even a steel beam cantalevered out past the landing to winch heavy objects up to landing height? keep the posts comming! tod

Tod,

I forgot to ask you something about this post...

You say to nix the insulation hangers, since there's going to be hardware cloth under the I-Joists. If the insulation is just resting on the hardware cloth, wouldn't that make it easier for critters to get at it? In my mind, the hangers would keep it supported a few inches above the cloth...out of critters reach.

But then again, if I just rest it on the hardware cloth, there'll be an air gap between the kraft paper and the decking...potentially letting a little air in to help it dry if it does get wet. And not having to install those hangers, saves me time and a little money.

Decisions decisions...
- Marty -