Electric Question

[Steve Ash]

Michael,

To reply to your problem, I must first start out by saying that I am Steve's son not Steve. I have registered through this forum, but the computer is having conflicts.

To give you a little bit of background I am an electrician that IS registered through the state of Michigan. I already have all my schooling, training (which must be 4 years and 8000 hours on the job training under a licensed Master Electrician) and am taking my Journeyman's test in June.

So with that I am not tooting my own horn but I am QUALIFIED! So let me quote something I found quite interesting it goes something like this "if you're not sure about something, please don't say that "the code doesn't allow it" or similar." I'm not sure if I got that exactly correct!???

Rob is correct that it is not in the code but here is something that is there he might not have checked. Look at 90.4 that might shed some light on all your mind games you want to play!! The code is interpretive it says so in the code book. Next there is more than one code book. How about the Michigan code which he might have forgot about too. Maybe???

Honestly any educated idiot can look at any book and try to interpret it to what they want to see. Anyone that takes electricity seriously knows that it is mostly theory and not law. Too may variables to give out information that does have the possibility of taking someone's life in less than a nanosecond. So, most people that honestly know what they are talking about and enjoy electricity for their livelihood, will be more than happy to help you or point you in the right direction. Human lives are way to important to listen to some "Guy" that has not received PROPER training, but decides to give their opinion. It is not a mind game and was never intended to be.

Maybe I am wrong for this posting but this is too important for me to ignore. Leave skilled trades to PROFESSIONALS. Please don't take the word of an educated idiot that has an opinion, it is your life not theirs.

Oh by the way you can run 120 volts and 240 volts in the same raceway in industrial and commercial but double check with your inspector if he finds that it is acceptable in your state. The NEC is just a guideline and can be overruled by State codes or the inspector if he feels the need. He has the jurisdiction according to 90.4.

Thank you,
Steve Jr.

[John Miliunas]

Steve Jr., first off, welcome to the Creek! We'll see if we can't get that sign-in issue resolved! Secondly, I for one, really DO appreciate insight from the professionals on this Forum and your educated response is inclusive of this! You're absolutely right that electricity is not something to take lightly, although many of us do much of our own wiring and such. For some, it's just that they like to do it, while for other, such as myself, the big buck$ (or lack thereof!) are the incentive to DIY. Regardless of the reason, thanks much for helping in clarifying these points!

So, when we get the login thing squared away, you gonna' start posting your own pics of pens and stuff off the lathe???

[Rob Russell]

Steve Jr.,

Welcome to SMC. It'll be nice when you can get your name stuff straightened out to post on your own vs. through your Dad's account.

As far as your quoting me - you did get it correct. My point was that it's inappropriate to state that "the code doesn't allow something" simply because one thinks that makes sense. The example in this case was having multiple circuits in a single enclosure. It might not make sense to many people who were posting, but that's not what's in the NEC. The same holds true for stating that it's OK to do something. Just because it makes sense doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate to do it or allowed under the NEC.

As far as the NEC being the definitive set of rules that we must follow, I am well aware that every state sets its own code standards. That why you electricians need to be licensed in every state you want to work in vs. being licensed at a federal level. I also understand that many states modify the NEC as adopted in that state. It wasn't really germane to the topic, so I didn't bring it up.

Regarding article 90.4 (which for everyone else defines the role of the "Authority Having Jurisdiction"), I'd suggest a little bit of caution on what you read into that section. Yes, the code as adopted is still interpretive. That interpretation, however, isn't supposed to be to standards that are higher than what the code requires. If, for example, the code as adopted by the AHJ for an area allows (by not specifically prohibiting) multiple circuits in an enclosure, the inspector doesn't have the right to prohibit those multiple circuits. If you read that section paragraph 2, you'll see that it refers to "equivalent objectives" for waivers, not "equivalent or better".

You might be a little careful about using the term "educated idiot" - your comments strike me as being a bit brash and pompous. Granted, there are many folks who shouldn't be allowed near a circuit breaker. I will freely admit that there are people for whom plugging in a toaster is the closest you want to let them get to doing electrical work. There are also homeowners who are very competent in subsets of electrical theory and application and your comments strike me as an insult to those folks.

In terms of your point about leaving electrical work to professional (and let's make that licensed) electricians, I feel it's unrealistic of you to expect that people won't do their own electrical work. As a homeowner, in most areas I am allowed to work on my home. Frankly, the electrical work that I have done in my home is better than the work that was done before by professionals. That's because I'm not worried about how long it takes to do stuff and can take the time to make the installations neater than the pro who wired our house apparently could. That was also the comment I got from the local inspector who inspected my work. Money is certainly a factor in me doing my own electrical work. I did the wiring for an addition to our house that had extensive recessed lighting, switching and low voltage stuff. The estimate from our framer (who is also a general contractor) was that the job I did would have been a $10K job had I hired it out. It cost me way less than that for the materials. Given a choice of doing the work myself or hiring a pro and cutting what we have as a finished product, doing it myself was our only option.

If your comment about "skilled trades to PROFESSIONALS" was about posting advice, that would be fine if the professional electricians chimed in and answered every electrical post. Unfortunately that doesn't happen.

I am not an expert on all aspects of residential wiring and don't pretend to be. If I answer a question it's because I'm certain of the answer and can cite the NEC if need be to back it up. I do that not to show off but because there are too many electrical posts that contain incorrect information. Being able to go back to the NEC as a reference for a common standard is more of a doublecheck for myself than anything else. If I'm not sure of an answer or can't back it up with a code cite, I won't post it. As you yourself posted, it doesn't take much more than a millisecond of time for things to get deadly with electricity.

Rob

[Michael Gabbay]

Ok here is the FINAL answer from my county (Fairfax, Va). They said it is perfectly legal to have two circuits (110 and 220) running in the same conduit to the same multi gang box as long as there is a metal plate separating the two circuits in the box. I have not seen the plates they are refering to but they said they are available. I'm sure HD and Lowes do not carry them so I'll run over to the electric supply house later this week.

Steve Jr. welcome to SMC.

Thanks for everyone's help on this. Next time I'll ask which American PU is better Ford, Chevy, Dodge.

Mike

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

.............You might be a little careful about using the term "educated idiot" - your comments strike me as being a bit brash and pompous.......Rob

I would have to disagree with you Rob and just say that Steve Jr. was just being blunt

I think that most would agree that book learning and on the job real life learning are not the same thing, and that is why licensed electricians have to have a lot of BOTH.

BTW, I'm not an electrician, but both of my Grand fathers were, my Dad is, and he was also an inspector for the Province of BC for 29 years, I have 5 uncles who are electricians an older brother, and 12+ cousins who are also electricians.

This don't make me qualified to answer the question in any other way than to say "Check with a licensed electrician, and ask your inspector!!"

I think that most inspectors who check on homeowners work will go the extra mile to help the guy out, thus I do not see any point in getting in to a "you know what" match with an inspector, no matter what the NEC says.

Just my two yen's worth.

Oh yeah, Welcome Steve Jr. Kick you Dad off that lathe and get some pens and bowls done!

[Steve Ash]

Okay, I am not speaking for my son but will say being brash or pompous is not his thing. Actually if I were to hazard a guess this statement:

"I may not be a licensed electrician, but I guarantee that I've read the code a lot more than most people.

would strike me as brash and pompous, because Rob, how can you speak for the electricians who need to study these code books in order to take a test to become a Journeyman electrician, or Master.

Now don't take this the wrong way because I can tell you do have a great understanding and grasp of the electrical codes (BTW, I am not any way close to an electrician, I am the educated idiot my son speaks of, I know just enough to be dangerous) But I hear the stories that both my sons tell about on jobsites and the things that have happened. One guy lost his head because of someones mistake (yes literally lost his head) My son has been bit by electricity because an educated idiot (in this case a non electrician) tripped a breaker while he was working on something...this is his terminology of an educated idiot.

I also think of it this way, I see advice being given on this forum all the time which is a good thing... I see home construction questions asked and answers given. I am a liscensed insured building contractor and sometimes respond but I know that at least if someone were to give a answer that I may not agree with that that person is in no harm, a mistake in house building usually means you need to make the adjustment to a size of beam, or add more support. A mistake means that you still live another day and can fix it, but boy the guys in the electrical field make one mistake and it may be the last one. I wonder if a person gave bad advice electrically and someone were to suffer the consequences how we all would feel about the free advice.

Oh yeah,....Jr. Welcome to the Creek!...get your own account!

[Rob Russell]

Actually if I were to hazard a guess this statement: "I may not be a licensed electrician, but I guarantee that I've read the code a lot more than most people."
would strike me as brash and pompous, because Rob, how can you speak for the electricians who need to study these code books in order to take a test to become a Journeyman electrician, or Master.

The way I put the above - it does come off as a bit pompous.

What I should have said is something to the effect that I've likely read the code more than other non-electricians. Any suggestion on my part that I've studied the code more than licensed electricians or know more about either electricity or the code than licensed electricians would be inappropriate.

I'd also like to comment about inspectors. From my personal experience, I've had good luck and would agree that most inspectors will help you out. I've also read horror stories, many from 2 professional electrical forums that I lurk on, where the pro-sparkies have had nightmares with unqualified inspectors. The problems there arise because some inspectors are multi-purpose - they have a little bit of experience in a lot of disciplines (electrical, plumbing, framing, etc.) but aren't expert in any of them. Get one of those and you could be in for a real ride.

Rob

[Steve Ash]

The way I put the above - it does come off as a bit pompous.

What I should have said is something to the effect that I've likely read the code more than other non-electricians. Any suggestion on my part that I've studied the code more than licensed electricians or know more about either electricity or the code than licensed electricians would be inappropriate.

Rob, you are such a gentleman to acknowledge that first statement! Truth is you are more than correct on the second as well. I can tell by the answers you have given and as I stated before you have a great grasp of the codes and beyond a doubt are a student of electricity, maybe you should get the schooling and the hours and take on a second job! It would be a job I am sure you would love.

[Rob Russell]

... maybe you should get the schooling and the hours and take on a second job! It would be a job I am sure you would love.

Perhaps when I retire. Right now we couldn't afford the pay cut I'd take to become an apprentice and at the moment I've got golden handcuffs on - need 4 and would like 7 more years at work. I would like to be able to do licensed electrical work because I could donate my time to wire Habitat for Humanity houses, plus train an apprentice at the same time. That's a few years away, though. The other issue is finding an electrical outfit that's willing to train an "old guy" knowing that they aren't going to get a lot of years out of him.