Table saw accidents

[Chris Giles]

John,
Head over to the IWF show in Atlanta in late August, and you will see just about everything there is to see regarding woodworking equipment, including the Sawstop. All of the latest stuff is on display at this show, and there is no better place to see it all demonstrated by the manufacturers. Your fortunate to be so close, I have to fly down from New Hampshire for it every two years.

[Sonny Porter]

1) Federal data shows something like 60,000 saw injuries a year, most from Table Saws.

Actually, I read the stuff the Sawstop folks inserted into the Congressional record and when I looked at the data they cited, the number of accidents which led to more than trivial scrapes or cuts is around 25,000. (Look up their "testimony," it reads like a sales brochure, it's almost a script of their previous press releases.)

I'd like to see some refresher data on how much money those injuries cost and how rerouting that money to Sawstop would make woodworking any safer for those who aren't in a position to spend $2,000+ on a table saw. Are we going to make woodworking safer by making it less accessible? If you don't let people ski, you certainly will lower the number of ski accidents.

What do we lose if the entire bottom of the market is ripped out? What do we lose if we only have one saw company allowed to sell to schools, factories, public agencies spending tax dollars? We can see the gain to Sawstop. What's the gain to us as taxpayers, as citizens, as woodworkers? We might gain something from banning poor people from owning a table saw - but does the United States want to be that type of country? Do we really want to prevent working class people from owning affordable table saws?

While it's tempting to forget the limits of economies and say things like, "If it prevents ONE ACCIDENT, it's worth 87 kajillion dollars," it's not true in the real world. In the real world, we put numbers into the risk/benefit ratio when we decide what to buy. Private individuals do not typically spend $2,500 to cover a $1,000 risk. People spending other people's money are often not so restrained.

When you amortize out the excess cost of the Sawstop saws over those 25,000 accidents it might have saved the nation, IMHO: the Sawstop impressed me as the most expensive way for this society to meet the need for more safety around table saws.

It's been a while since I read those docs, I don't even have them on this computer, but my lasting impression was that one of the major sources of controversy in this issue is Sawstop's energetic pursuit of legal/legislative force rather than market persuasion to make its case. They apparently aren't able to scare the hell out of enough woodworkers to make the money they want to from this thing -- so they're happy to try making an end run around the marketplace by going down political paths instead. When people do that to a community which has a lot of independent minded constituents, they will find resistance. I'd bet some of the valence of Sawstop threads comes from that resistance.

[Greg Ladd]

With all due respect to everyone posting here, I have to believe that the comments regarding the sliding saw as the way to go are right on the money.

Regardless of how well the SawStop works, keeping the hands a considerably distance from the blade seems to me to be a much better option. I have not doubt that the SawStop cartridge is a great idea, but everything has a possibility of failure.

If I were in your position, there is no way I would consider anything less than a european slider. There is simply too much at risk here.

As a matter of fact, this probably applies to all of us. Many people who have had an incident with a table saw have commented that the SawStop would have been a bargain compared to the cost of an ER room visit as well at the pain and suffering involved. I would venture to say if the same thing happened to me I would probably say a Euro slider would have been a bargain.

Greg

[Burt Waddell]

I'm not a surgeon but as a woodworker earning my living that way I also need both my hands functioning well. If I could buy a sawstop in the UK I almost certainly would. If they ever make one with a designed in (euro) slider as well I will swim back with one on my back. The euro sliding table is the only design that puts you in the same league of protection and the combination of the two would be unbeatable.

You can be as careful and as clever as you like. You can agonise about the risk of accidental misfire costing you a couple hundred bucks. But the first time that you do something daft and feel the wind as the blade vanishes away from you you will thank yourself for spending the extra and realising your own fallibility.

The comparison to driving has been made. I think of the SawStop as similar to airbags. When they first came out I hated the idea that there was a computer - a damn computer- making the decision about firing an explosive charge in the direction of my face to inflate a bag of tent material. I did not trust them and avoided them as long as I could because I didn't trust the technology. But the number of misfires is astonishingly small and the number of injuries and fatalities avoided is huge. I don't drive recklessly because I have an airbag in front of me. I still stop at red lights and keep a safe distance and don't drive tired and wear a seat belt and stay on the correct (left!) side of the road. In other words I take all the active safety steps I can and am grateful for the additional protection of this passive safety feature.

Buy it. Be grateful if it proves to be a waste of money because you never need it. Buy it. Buy it. Buy it.

No affiliation - just a desire to minimise the number of amputees that put people off this pastime and profession.

Ian,

I think that looking at Bruce's illustration of the safety factors involved here draws a great parallel with most existing saw systems like the slider and table saw. These tools were designed to cut wood first and safety is an after thought. This is kind of like the safety equipment used in nascar. At first there was nothing - then safety belts, roll cages, Hans devices, softer walls, etc. but drivers still get killed. We add safety devices to saws but we still suffer from cuts and kick backs.

This problem needs to be addressed by designing a totally new tool that can safely cut without kick backs and that keeps the operators hands out of harms way. While the makers of the saw stop are to be commended for their efforts, I think they come far short of the goal. They tried to fix an existing tool instead of creating a new one. In other words, you might say they put a helmet on the motorcycle rider. Where is the rest of the safety gear?

Burt

[Phil Phelps]

....find a new hobby until you retire. Your skill is far too important to be messing with power saws. I've cut myself several times, still have the fingers, but the feeling isn't the same in the places that took the damage. My fingers come within an eighth inch from a bandsaw, weekly. I've been doing this for 38 years, and am lucky to have 'em all. But the accidents I've had, rendered my helpless for a few weeks. You can't afford that. Here is a router "glitch" a couple of years ago.

[John Kain]

John,
Head over to the IWF show in Atlanta in late August, and you will see just about everything there is to see regarding woodworking equipment, including the Sawstop. All of the latest stuff is on display at this show, and there is no better place to see it all demonstrated by the manufacturers. Your fortunate to be so close, I have to fly down from New Hampshire for it every two years.

I'll actually look into it. It's only $10 for 4 days...........

Now if I can figure something for my wife to do during the time I'm there

[John Bush]

Hi John,
I've had the SS for 1 1/2 years now and bought it because I wanted to upgrade from a smaller Cab saw, and also I am a Dentist and have a keen interest in keeping my digits intact. The brake mechanism seems like more of a silent safety partner while the riving knife or blade quard feel like the true safety feature(s) of the saw. I had never installed the blade guard on my old TS, and now I couldn't imagine firing up the SS without the knife or guard in place. I've had no misfires and fortunately no need to sample the braking prowess of the SS, but I still feel good that I have the mechanism online if needed.

John, I'd recommend that you tryout a saw with a good, integral riving knife(PM2000? & SS) then compare to a slider. I've used a high end slider once and it was very nice but over the top for a hobbiest, I think. However, the cost would be insignificant relative to an unwelcome career change. Good luck, JCB.

[J. Greg Jones]

I don't have the amount of experience you do but I have been riding on and off for about 30 years of my life, both on and off road. I see my statement as fair because even if you remove the idea of cars hitting you there is a far greater likelihood of having a crash and getting hurt when riding a motorcycle than when driving any 4 wheeled vehicle.
Bruce

I think we are in agreement that riding a motorcycle is inherently more dangerous. I interpreted your earlier comment of Would it be fair then to say that riding a motorcycle is no more dangerous than any other form of transportation provided you observe all safety guidelines? as saying that motorcycling is no more dangerous than other forms of transportation.

[tod evans]

I've never really looked into sliding TSs.

I know of the MiniMax ones and that's about it. Could you all give me some direction for sliding TSs you have, or have seen?

john, a german company has developed safety equipment that is really good functional stuff martin offers their gear, it`s called aigner. here`s a link to a saw most of us dream about;
http://www.martin-usa.com/products_d...3&categoryid=1
not cheap by any means but probably as safe and accurate a way to process wood as any means available. it`s my understanding that minimax is offering aigner products too? as you probably know i use minimax equipment, it`s safe and accutate and in a price bracket i can deal with. in my opinion the martin i gave you a link to and the altendorf;
http://www.altendorfamerica.com/equi...f45_select.htm
are the two best saws made today. if you can write the check for either of these saws your kids might be breaking them in when they retire. in a hobbiest enviornment i can never see wearing one out, they`re well made safe pieces of equipment.
bear in mind the links i`ve given are the best saws i know of for use as a conventional slider...02 tod

[Ian Barley]

... you might say they put a helmet on the motorcycle rider. Where is the rest of the safety gear?

Burt

Not really. If you consider the way that the device works and you want to make a comparison to a motorcycle then they but a "world eliminator" on the bike. Basically bear in mind that contact with the blade not only makes the blade stop but removes it from the travel path in a very, very short space of time. To make a comparison with a motorcycle it would have to be fitted with a device that makes inattentive motorists vaporise on contact with the motorcycle. Now that I would buy!

Basically, to paraphrase scotty, "You cannot change the laws of physics". Anything which has enough energy to cause the bonds between the atoms in a piece of wood to be seperated will do the same thing to tissue and bone. Short of the day when somebody invents a method to make the wood want to do this of its own accord every tool, or combination of tools, designed to do so will carry the risk of doing it to the wrong material. It doesn't matter whether the tool has been designed from scratch or adapted. It will still carry a risk. All you can do is use levels of active (push stick, stance, planning etc..) and passive (guards, protective equipment etc..) safety methods which mitigate the risks which arise based on your usage profile.

I have an upcut crosscut saw. It is basically a corsscut saw with modifications for safety The circular saw blade rotates in a sealed cavity (mod 1) which is interlocked to interrupt the power if the cavity is unsealed (mod 2). The cutting cycle is activated by the simultaneous pressing of two buttons (mod 3) which are positioned about 2' apart in such a way that they can only be depressed simultaneously using your left and right hand (mod 4). When they are depressed a blade guard is pneumatically lowered until the workpiece is securely clamped (mod 5) and at that point the blade rises up and the section which protrudes through the workpiece is completely enveloped by the top guard. When the buttons are released at the end of the cycle the guard remains in place until the blade is once again completely below the table (mod 6). I consider this to be as close as I can get to a completely safe, low effort way to perform this job. The saw cost me about $4500 and it isn't even adjustable - it just cuts 90 degrees every single time. If I made that cut 10, 100 or even a thousand times a year it would probably be overkill. As I do it tens of thousands of times a year it is a great value way to take at least that risk away from my working day.

Thats why I say if you are serious about spending more than a few hours a month on woodworking and have decided that a TS is a tool that you are going to own, seriously, really seriously, consider how to make sure that it is the safest TS that you can afford. And in my book that means SawStop or euro slider.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I think we are in agreement that riding a motorcycle is inherently more dangerous. I interpreted your earlier comment of Would it be fair then to say that riding a motorcycle is no more dangerous than any other form of transportation provided you observe all safety guidelines? as saying that motorcycling is no more dangerous than other forms of transportation.

I was making reference to David Duke's statement in post #4 that read,"I am of the opinion that the TS is no more dangerous than any other tool in the shop provided you use proper technique and observe all safety guidelines "...Snip. I thought that with respects to safety and using proper technique, comparing a TS to other powerful cutting tools in the shop was similar to the difference between riding a motorcycle versus other forms of transportation. Even when using all available safety precautions and techniques, a table saw will always be potentially more dangerous than other tools in a shop just as a motorcycle will always be more dangerous than a car on the road. My opinion, of course and I was just trying to illustrate my point using the motorcycle as an example. Maybe I wasn't successful? Wouldn't be the first time.

Bruce

[Michael Cody]

I honestly and respectfully question this. I do not think Sawstop is state of the art safety because it's too narrowly focused. It is geared to handle one fear: injury by the cutting blade on one tool. I know a shop teacher who cut off parts of several fingers in a jointer. We've all heard of terrible accidents where clothing or hair was caught up in a spinning arbor of some sort and the person was literally scalped. Nailing guns have their own hit parade of amazing videos floating around the Internet.

Safety considerations in woodworking should be more comprehensive.

Have you ever been in a roomful of long time woodworkers? It looks like a hearing aid convention! We won't mention the hacking coughs that seem to go with the hearing aids. Many people have already mentioned the frequency of kickbacks. I've seen people kneel on the floor to view the lineup between wood and saw blade - while the saw was still on! A lot of things can happen besides falling into a spinning blade.

When the loss potential is VERY high, it's a good idea to optimize the problem definition. Sliding saws, a stock feeder maybe, Festool (or some other system that tries to limit dust exposure), engineering design of the entire system so JK can do the kind of woodworking he likes with the least overall risk. Don't stop at the Sawstop. Think bigger.

My single quote about "state-of-the-art" is a touch out of context in your reply, but basically I was saying there is no other method on the planet I know of that will stop the blade if you run a piece of you into it.. "NOTHING" else that does that.. I also made a strong point that you still use all the safety procedures, tricks, tips, etc, just like the trapeze performer, but the saw stop is your safety net. It's not instead of other techniques -- it's IN ADDITION TO other techniques. Like I said you only have to screw up once to change your life -- sorta like sex ... DINO said it best, lets see a saw stop w/a euro slider and power feeder, then we'd have something!

We've become a country scared of our shadows. We take stupid risks because no one wants to encumbered, then take avoidable risks in the name economy or the "it won't happen to me syndrome". We could easily stop speeding on the highway for a few hundred million dollars in technology, but instead we kill 50k a year -- but we spend millions of dollars to ban ephedra when aspirin has killed more people. That SAW STOP is a low cost option (compared to life of the saw) that stops one type of accident that will cost Thousands of times more than that cost of the saw, if it happens, not to mention the human cost. It's a no brainer to me. As Jim said in the song -- you don't spit into the wind, you don't tug on superman's cape.......................

[Dino Makropoulos]

... DINO said it best, lets see a saw stop w/a euro slider and power feeder, then we'd have something!

-- you don't spit into the wind, you don't tug on superman's cape.......................

Give credit to:

Invariably when Saw Stop is mentioned there are a bunch of responses like: "I'd rather have a power feeder," or" A sliding table is all you need", or "good practices are more important", etc. etc. And each such response certainly makes sense, but why are they usually phrased in such a way as being alternatives to Saw Stop as opposed to additions? Why not use every safety measure possible? The consensus seems to be the SS is a quality saw; so if you can afford it, why not buy it? I sure would if I could.

I'd really appreciate an answer to this question from any of the folks whose post is in the nature of diminishing the importance of SS.

[Charlie Plesums]

I'll actually look into it. It's only $10 for 4 days...........

Now if I can figure something for my wife to do during the time I'm there

My wife really enjoyed the last IWF in Atlanta. It isn't the usual hobby woodworking show where you look for bargains on router bits... it is the show where furniture factories buy their equipment - an amazing gee-whiz show if nothing else. But they do have all the major vendors of equipment from Porter Cable (with Norm Abrams signing autographs) through Saw Stop, MiniMax, and the very high end saws like Martin and Altendorf. My wife and I spent four full days, and didn't see it all.

MiniMax won my money, and I am a big fan, so I will undoubtedly stop by to see all the latest they have. I have their 5 function combination machine and a 24 inch bandsaw, and would be glad to chat about my decision process if you want to talk.

[Sonny Porter]

Invariably when Saw Stop is mentioned there are a bunch of responses like: "I'd rather have a power feeder," or" A sliding table is all you need", or "good practices are more important", etc. etc. And each such response certainly makes sense, but why are they usually phrased in such a way as being alternatives to Saw Stop as opposed to additions? Why not use every safety measure possible?

Actually, this isn't a bad idea, as ideas go. It would be fine to suit up for nuclear war every time we step into the workshop and buy every single thing that could prevent accidents and injuries. But usually, people in the real world have financial limits that prevent that. There are also compatibility and redundancy factors. If you use a guided-rail system to avoid amputations and kickback, maybe you don't actually need a table saw at all - you're using another way to cut wood. One day, we'll probably use Lasers to cut wood with CNC machines and this whole thread will seem quaint. (Don't laugh - who would have predicted so many things which have taken the world by storm the last 25 years?)

I noticed early on that Sawstop would cost as much as the next two or three safety systems combined. I had little faith that they cared about affordability. Like early Volvos, the marketing proposition is strong enough to withstand comparison with alternatives - nobody else is working that niche. I expect that to change. I see changes in routers already - Porter-Cable and DeWalt both have tried to design dust collection into recent designs, for instance.

Sawstop will try hard to defend patents that make it impossible for anyone else to develop alternatives. Using the capacitance of the human body as a switching mechanism isn't all that original, for instance (it's been used in elevators for decades), nor the idea of using moisture detection to differentiate flesh from inanimate matter. These core patents might be challenged sometime. If it is, we could see competition in this field explode. If the Sawstop mechanism cost $50, how many people would turn it down?

Aside from price, I honestly think Sawstop sets hackles up in the woodworking community by its history of trying to force the system's adoption through political action instead of market attraction. If not for this political element, they could rely on the woodworking magazine community to give them free publicity year after year after year - until there was some mass of users which could act as a market wedge. It would seem Sawstop doesn't want to wait for persuasion.