a relabeling job or what?

[Mike Wenzloff]

There's a good side to WallMart and a bad side. I only highlighted the good side. To discuss the bad side would be to make this thread a political discussion instead of a woodworking discussion. I certainly see the bad side of WallMart and can expound at length on the problems.
...

But only discussion the good side doesn't remove the political nature--it is expounding upon the positive political nature without the balanced view negatives would bring to the table.

But it is still political.

Using Japan is a good example of how a country can begin with what use to be a joke [Made in Japan] to making things of better quality. We both used this example.

There are many distinct differences, most of which are societally and culturally based.

We can have differing views as to the short and long term impact of outsourcing to China and other countries. The short term is, I see absolutely no positives. I see no product in the history of China post industrial revolution in which a product has been reenginered to be a better product for less, unlike Japan. Only cheaper and of lesser quality.

The fact remains, service and techincal jobs are being outsourced to foreign countries, and the rate at which products are being outsourced is escalating at an alarming rate.

We as consumers are paying for this job loss in more ways than one. Cheaper, lesser quality goods is but and easy target.

Whether the Jet Tormek clone is even of comparable or servicable [whatever that really means, but it is negative] quality is not close to the point. And whether the quality improves over time, well, time will tell.

The bigger question is, will the Tormek be around when we all decide the Jet isn't worth hoey 10 years from now and it is too late to vote with our money?

Take care, Mike

And just to ease Jim's mind, I'll refrain from additional posts...

[Mike Henderson]

I’ll follow up via a PM if you want to continue the discussion.

However, I don’t see why you continue to say things produced outside the US are of lesser quality, and old things are of higher quality. Consumers vote with their money. If they thought something was of lesser quality (for the money) they would not buy it. That’s the basis of our free enterprise system.

If old things were better (for the money) companies would still be making and selling them. A company goes out of business when it can no longer make money.

Consumers are smart - after all, it's their money. It sounds to me like you're trying to substitute your judgement for theirs.

Mike

[Chris Barton]

I agree with Michael on this one. I have tried to think of what was made 50 years ago (machinery) that was better than what's available today and I couldn't come up with a single example. I was able to think of a brand of tools made largely in China that were worse 10+ years ago and are now cheaper and better, in fact better to the point of winning awards from multiple woodworking publications, including those with zero financial conflicts (advertising dollars) but, I don't think those that made the point will want to hear it... Griz. This whole "hate Asia" thing is difficult to get my head around.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Chris, I don't hate Asia--and perhaps it is unfair to catagorize my statements as hate. Even when the word "hate" is in quotes.

It is hard to not award tools prizes in the absence of alternatives.

I know the venerable Powermatic 66's trunnion is not as beefy as it once was. That change has been made since outsourcing. Perhaps it was improperly overengineered to begin with? Perhaps not. And Baldor motors? Think they will be still on the equipment they presently are 15 years from now? They are being and have been replaced on "lower price point" equipment already. But only time will tell.

I don't think people will be rehabbing Jet drill presses and Supersaws 75 years from now and saying how wonderful they are. They will be in landfills.

[Chris Barton]

Chris, I don't hate Asia--and perhaps it is unfair to catagorize my statements as hate. Even when the word "hate" is in quotes.

Mike W., I didn't say you used the word hate, an alternative use of quotation marks for paraphrasing is a literary convention. I do believe that there is that kind of undertone to some of the posts in this thread.

It is hard to not award tools prizes in the absence of alternatives.

Mike, I just picked up the latest table saw review in FWW, vol 184, June 06 and by my count in this comparison there were 13 entries and this list was certainly not exhaustive. I have been woodworking for over 30 years and I can't remember having that many options to chose from in 1972 when as a highschooler my dad got me my first saw (sears). So, I think this notion of there being an absence of choices is specious.

I don't think people will be rehabbing Jet drill presses and Supersaws 75 years from now and saying how wonderful they are. They will be in landfills.

And you base this believe on what evidence? I think it is easy for some to bash certain tool brands yet, I rarely see the bases of their objections. If you haven't noticed by now, I love a lively debate (the egg-head in me I guess). But, lets debate based upon tangible and objectifiable evidence, not on feelings and emotions. The latter often lead us to make decissions that we later regret.

[Ken Werner]

Mike and Per, right on!

http://www.jibjab.com/JokeBox/JokeBo...px?movieid=122

Ken

[Mike Wenzloff]

Chris,

Thank you for the pedantic lesson on literary convention. You probably are aware of concepts such as implication. You implied myself and perhaps Per were Asia haters. That, or you were constructing an argument from absurdity--also a literary convention.

Don't confuse a multiplicity of choice--where there are in reality only a couple factories actually making these "brands"--which free market choice. In reality, there are no more choices available today.

When I was 18, I worked as truck driver delivering materials to a factory which made trailer homes. Double-wides. There were 6 assembly lines. Each assembly line used the same materials, and depending on workload, the same mix of workers. The were branded differently, priced differently, though many were within the same ballpark, and retailed through various channels. I see the current state of woodworking machinery in the same vein.

My only basis is conjecture, guesswork. Perhaps even an educated guess if I am generous. I'll go a step further. *If* people 75 years from now are rehabbing machinery built today by the big 3 makers and thinking we are in the golden age of machinery, just think of the crude they will have to compare it to.

Again, the reality is, the stuff many here at SMC are rehabbing will still be around then. And functioning.

Take care, Mike

[Cecil Arnold]

To get back on point, if I were going to spend $399 for one of these things, I would buy the Tormek, but as someone said, the Jet will come down in price soon (I agree with that prediction) and maybe Tormek will follow.

As to all the discussion about markets, exported jobs, ad nausea--we only have ourselves to blame. The oil market is not free when a cartel can get $75 for a barrel (42 gal.) of oil that only costs $2 to extract and sell it for $3 per gallon. Dr. W. Edwards Deming tried to convince Detroit that statistical quality control would produce better cars at a lower price, Detroit's reaction was that they could sell everything they could produce so they didn't need it. MacArthur brought Deming to Japan and in 20 years they were producing better cars and TVs than anyone else. They also bought the rights to Fax machine technology after AT&T thought they had wrung everything from it in the way of profits that they could--big surprise, the Japanese made a mint. So who's to blame. Labor didn't make those decisions, and when Honda started making cars in the USA we discovered that the UAW could make Hondas as well as Japanese auto workers. Duh?? Rant off.

[Dick Strauss]

Ken,
I was going to post the same thing..."Oh Big Box Mart". I thought we could use a little humor!

[Damien Falgoust]

I don't think people will be rehabbing Jet drill presses and Supersaws 75 years from now and saying how wonderful they are. They will be in landfills.

I hate for my first post here to be in this kind of thread -- I'm a complete novice woodworker who's learned an awful lot just reading these forums, and I'd rather have first chimed in with a question about something woodworking related -- but this sort of comment just raises some interesting questions from my POV.

Namely, why is buying equipment that will last 75 years a good thing? You're certainly paying for the additional engineering and manufacturing costs that allow it to be longer lived. Why?

I'm 33, and I gather that I am on the younger end of the scale when it comes to this hobby. 75 years from now I'll be 108. In the unlikely event I'm actually still around for Al Roker III to wish me happy birthday, I'm pretty sure I won't be hopping around the shop. Sure, a business can theoretically have a perpetual life, but if you're a cabinet shop planning on using your equipment for three-quarters of a century, I think you need some better capex planning.

Isn't it better to cut those costs and buy a piece of equipment with a shorter (but still long) life? Does anyone think the top of the line Powermatic table saws won't last for at least several decades of use -- essentially a lifetime for a hobbyist shop?

The market pays for the amount of engineering it needs. I can hardly begrudge the Chinese for producing well-priced goods at a quality level the market demands.

[Mike Henderson]

Welcome to the Creek, Damien. Always glad to see someone jump in with both feet.

Mike W. and I have been communicating offline about the same subject: What is the definition of Quality and who defines it? My position is that Quality means meeting the needs of the customer, and only the customer gets to define what quality is for their purchase (how well a product meets their needs).

Customers are rational and will only purchase what they need. If they don't need a product which will last for 75 or 100 years, they won't purchase it if there's an extra cost for that extra life.

Quality is not some absolute thing - it cannot be measured like the amount of water in a cup - it can only be judged in reference to the needs of the customer.

And to get back to my original thesis, competition drives prices lower and quality higher. Competition is all about satisfying the needs of the customers.

Mike

[Frank Hagan]

I really think the idea of catorgorizing tools as over priced is silly. What does "over priced" mean? I suspect it means different things to different people.

That's easy ... any tool I want, but haven't bought is "over-priced".

[Frank Hagan]

To get back on point, if I were going to spend $399 for one of these things, I would buy the Tormek, but as someone said, the Jet will come down in price soon (I agree with that prediction) and maybe Tormek will follow.

Part of what makes the Tormek seem expensive is a multitude of grinders that run hundreds of dollars less, and those are the only things that look like the Tormek. Quality costs, I know, but I can't help thinking that absent similar machines from competitors, there's too much room for an unreasonably high price. Now, if Jet and Grizzly and the folks at B&D all come out with models at similar prices, I may consider the Tormek a good value. If the prices fall, and Tormek remains the highest priced but 10 - 20% below where they are now, those of us who tend to buy quality will consider it a great deal and buy the Tormek.

I do find it a bit funny that this thread has devolved into an American manufacturing thread; last I heard, protecting the Tormek from competition would help no American manufacturer.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Mike W. and I have been communicating offline about the same subject: What is the definition of Quality and who defines it? My position is that Quality means meeting the needs of the customer, and only the customer gets to define what quality is for their purchase (how well a product meets their needs)....

Yes, we have.

Thank you for bringing private communication into the public space.

There are several logical problems with your above definition of Quality.

Try the dictionary, not sentiment. Words mean something. You can express your position without redefining words and concepts.

For one, who determines what exactly it is the customer "needs" anyway? The accountants/CFOs/marketing personell? Share holders? Having been in an engineering department, it certainly isn't the engineers who make that decision.

Is it the customers themselves? How? When is the last time any of us communicated how a major tool could be made better and they listened and changed? Companies by and large have a philosophy of building to a given pricing structure. They do what it takes to make it to that cost/profit structure. It really is pretty simple.

I understand your point, Michael. But it would be better/more accurate to say that the customer defines personal value, than quality.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

I hate for my first post here to be in this kind of thread...

Welcome Damien, no worries.

My and Michael's disagreement is more over meaning of words than where something is built. It is more philosophical than practical: The world ain't gonna change.

fyi, I pulled the concept of 75 years outta...thin air. It is about the beginning of the age of much of the machinery which is currently sought after by many on the old wood working machine sites.

If all this wrangling about of words only applied to so called hobbyists, I probably wouldn't care. But there are people who bang on the current available machinery day in day out to feed families. For many of them, this is more than a theoretical debate. Too, for the people who use to build this equipment in this country, it is a very personal issue.

For people to dismiss this as the world economy making adjustments, well, they probably haven't lost or come close to losing everything they spent years trying to build up. For them it is not theoretical. To shrug the shoulders is to diminish their very lives.

As well, shipping jobs overseas affects more than the many who have seemingly stable jobs. What was once thought to be careers are now but transitory positions. If you think at your young age it won't affect you--you may be right. But you may be wrong, too. Will your view then change? Will Michael's? If y'all are correct, then it shouldn't matter.

Anyway, debate is good. It makes the mind think.

Take care, Mike