What should I say?

[Mark Singer]

I always try to be supportive of peoples work and their designs...that is usually very easy, because there is some extermely fine workmanship and design by SMC members. It is always a pleasure to see this. Occasionally I see a design that has poor proportions or its "overdesigned" IMHO and I often refrain from comment completely or I talk about the workmanship and refrain from coments about the design... I think people are sensitive to what they designed and these ideas came from in their head....it is delicate... I never want to discourage new original work even if its not great. If I say "it could have been better if...." and its already built....not good If someone is using a screwdriver to square a mortise...he is usually not offended if you tell him a chisel works better....but design...oooohhh.....what should I say

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Mark--lie, of course.

Well, OK. Lying for me isn't much an option either. If I choose to respond is it because there is something postive to say, whether it is a comment based upon design, finish color and or appearance, an element of execution--maybe even deflecting the conversation to a jig, overall execution, or simply the "spirit" of the work.

By the last, perhaps the enthusiasm of the poster gets mentioned, or the occassion of the piece [present etc.].

If there is nothing I can say positive, and there often is something, then I choose to say nothing unless pressed [and that does happen].

What I especially "like" are those pieces for which the posters ask respondants to "hold nothing back."

I think there is a difference in situation of a forum and a formal training environment. At least to a degree. Someone in the former is often seeking affirmation, not really a full-blown critique as in the latter [for which they often pay well for critique].

I would like to think I don't care. I certainly can be my own worst critic, as well as my own best judge of which element[s] worked well. But it is different coming from others from whom one has taken the risk of exposure. So while I seek honesty when I seek out affirmation or critique, honesty which isn't brutal from all but my closest peers can be painful at times. And with my close peers, I expect nothing less.

And heck, even when a screwdriver is used and something mentioned, a thread can often devolve into a discussion of the value of tools...

Take care. I need coffee.

[tod evans]

mark, personally i`d rather learn from what i build, if it`s outta proportion say so! if something just doesn`t work for whatever reason i`d rather not keep heading down that path.......then again if i design for my eye and a piece pleases me it won`t matter one bit to me whether or not you like it...but i still value your opinion and i`m not so thin skinned that i`ll sell off my tools and take a desk job just `cause you don`t like my latest creation ....02 tod

[Mark Singer]

mark, personally i`d rather learn from what i build, if it`s outta proportion say so! if something just doesn`t work for whatever reason i`d rather not keep heading down that path.......then again if i design for my eye and a piece pleases me it won`t matter one bit to me whether or not you like it...but i still value your opinion and i`m not so thin skinned that i`ll sell off my tools and take a desk job just `cause you don`t like my latest creation ....02 tod

Tod,
That is kind of the point....if I feel a little advice will help long term, for future stuff, I would like to say something ...yet I know how sensitive we all can be

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark.........I can only speak for myself. Like Tod....I'd like to hear your critique as in the long run it'll improve my work. I think you could point out the good points (if any) and suggest that doing "this" would make it better. Most people at SMC have a tremendous respect for your opinion and appreciate the critical comments and they would be taken in manner you desire.

[tod evans]

mark, unlike me you have the ability to be tactfull........and when giving advice especially on something as subjective as design tact is really a good thing...tod

[Jim Becker]

I'm a straight talk kind of person and like to honestly comment on things. When someone invites it, there is no problem. The issue in public forums is that many folks forget to request commentary or critique.

I sometimes see things posted that are "painful" to me from a design/proportion perspective...obviously a subjective thing 'cause I also screw up there more than enough to satisfy Mr. Murphy. Sometimes I choose to just not post. Sometimes I post and praise the effort, being careful to word things. Sometimes I'll ask a question that serves the same purpose as a comment, but in a thoughtful way. And in the chance event that the poster asked for critique, I'll be honest in the most PC way I can, especially if I can illustrate how a change can benefit the project. (That's easiest to do for turnings due to the magic of PhotoShop)

Bottom line...I encourage folks to ask for advice/critique when they want it so that there is clear permission to comment fully. The rest of the time, it's a judgment call. You can have a more detailed discussion with a long-time poster since you likely know how they will react, but for someone "new", tread carefully without the "invitation"...

[Mark Singer]

I tink it is easier if it is a long time member, because he has probably recieved positive input at SMC from me or others and knows it is constructive in nature....I just hate nailing a newby

[Dan Larson]

Mark,

My rule-of-thumb is that at work I don't worry about restraining myself from offering constructive criticism. It's a natural and essential part of a healthy work environment. But away from work, I try to stay away from giving unsolicited constructive criticism. Although we all like to think of ourselves as being thick skinned, I think it's harder for many folks to positively accept constructive criticism when they're not prepared for it-- sometimes people are just looking for a few words of encouragement.

I've always been impressed with how you handle yourself on SMC, Mark. You "stir the pot" in a very positive way, and it sets a good tone for the forum. Maybe you could consider offering constructive criticism to those who specifically ask for it. That way you will know that your comments are being considered in the spirit in which they are intended.

Dan

[Lee DeRaud]

I'd say, if something is posted here in the Design forum, getting critiques/suggestions/comments is pretty much the whole point of the exercise.

Now over in the General (or Turning) forum, there are two possibilities:

1. The "Here's the project I'm just starting" thread. Comments on design are probably appropriate here, assuming there's enough information provided to see what the thing will look like ahead of time. And comments on possible techniques or joinery options are clearly always in play. (Of course sometimes all you're working with is "I'm going to build a table, check out this pile of wood.", and there's really nothing useful to say.)

2. The "Here's the project I just completed" thread. Sometimes you can find good things to say, sometimes you just have to shake your head and remind yourself, "Well, thank god it won't be in my house!" But unless he's explicitly asking for comments, I think the assumption has to be that the poster is pretty pleased with how it came out or he wouldn't have posted it.

[Dan Larson]

You can have a more detailed discussion with a long-time poster since you likely know how they will react, but for someone "new", tread carefully without the "invitation"...

Jim, this is a very good point. It's much harder to go wrong with someone you know pretty well...

[Jeff Horton]

It's a different type of situation but you can apply it here too... to a point anyway. I have had people tell me a personal situation and ask what I think or what I think they should do. My first answer is pretty simple.

Do you want to me to agree with you and tell you it is OK to do that?
Or do you REALLY want to know my opinion?

So I guess you have decide if they are so proud of their project that are really just wanting to show it off. Of if they really want a critique? Sometimes the best way is say nothing.

Since you asked, thats my opinion.

[Mark Singer]

Since you asked, thats my opinion.

I think I can handle that critisism.....anyone have a Kleenex

[Don Baer]

Mark,
I know that personaly I want to improve my meager skills. Posting and asking for comments is a way to do this. I can choose to ignore the comments that I don't think are in keeping with my design phylosophy. One of the great thing about this forum is that it allows a hobbiest woodworker like me to be exposed to a number of talented artists. Wether doing flat work or turning, the only way for me to grow my skills is to have others look at what I have done and offer constructive critisisms. I have seen some designs that for me didn't work, and said so and why but at the same time I also offer good comments about the workmanship or the finish also.

[John Miliunas]

Tod, a sign I bought a number of years ago: "The Definition of Tact: The ability to tell someone to go to -you know where- and make them feel happy to be on their way!"

Mark, maybe I'm a bit too thick-skinned myself but, newbie or not, once a piece of work is posted publicly, then one opens the "doors" to criticism. And that relates to woodworking, hot rods or knitting! Regardless, the various forums here at SMC are meant to share knowledge, gain knowledge and have a little fun doing it. Personally, I'm much like yourself or Tod, in as much, it there's something I truly don't like about a piece, I just keep my proverbial trap shut. BUT, that only holds true if the OP (original poster) simply posted a piece for us to view. OTOH, if a person posts a project and asks for critiques, I think you owe it to that person to give them your fair appraisal. Now, that's my way of going about it, because I simply don't have the experience and expertise that folks like you and others with much more experience do.

You, of all people, are a proportions and design genius! Maybe it's your training, maybe it's your natural ability or a combination of both. The fact that you are as successful as you are and are willing to share your views, is a benefit that veterans and newbies alike can gain from! I've seen some critiques by you and they go beyond, "Well, I just don't like it." They include "why" and "..this is what I would've done and here's how." That, my friend, is worth more than one can learn in a book or watching a "how to" on a DVD. Far too often, those mediums don't explain the "why". It's just someone up there, who already knows the design element, as well as what the proportions are supposed to be! We may learn methods but, we don't know the "why" behind them.

Personally, I love it when people give constructive criticism of my work. Sometimes, I may have a dern good reason the thing is a bit wacky in proportion; other times, I just missed the boat and cherish having the information put forth for my next similar project.

But, you're right. Not everyone takes kindly to critiques. (Ask me; I know! My 21 yr-old daughter still "knows better" than all those around her!!! ) Many "newbies", in particular, may at first, be offended. However, if they're into woodworking for the "long haul", you've done them a service. No, they may not admit it at first but, what you have to offer will still impact on them the next time they sit down to do a project. Eventually, they will not only see what you were trying to tell them, but openly admit it, as their projects evolve into nicer pieces. Somewhere along the way, they'll be heard to say, "Yeah. That's what that Schlamaca guy was talking about!!!"