What should I say?

[Ken Garlock]

Well, I am certainly a neophyte in woodworking, but let me open my big mouth anyway.

In the design area, I know nothing but would like to see more posts regarding proposed works. I enjoy Mark's postings of famous woodworking artists. I don't always like what I see, but that is me. An idea that might be helpful is a simple set of references regarding pleasing ratios and a few design rules. This reference could be a sticky that Marks maintains and updates as new questions arise. Also include Mark's recent postings regarding types of joints and items of that nature.

The design forum I equate to the front door of project. On the back door I suggest a critique forum. It would be of course be totally optional. The 'user' would post to the general forum of his choice for sharing his work with the members of that forum. Then if he was seeking critical constructive comments, he put a one-liner in the critiques forum asking that people take a look at his posting on the xyz forum. This critique posting would say that yes, I want you to comment on the design, I am opening myself up to criticism and I will not get insulted. Likewise it is the responsibility of the critic to be constructive and detailed in their analysis of what they like and don't like.

Certainly the 'front door' and 'back door' ideas could be in the existing design forum. Maybe it is just a matter of encouraging people to ask for design critiques.

As a famous news analyst would say, ' what say you, tell me where I am going wrong.'

[J. Scott Chambers]

I personally can't stand a "Yes" man. If I ask for your opinion, I want your opinion, preferrably tactfully stated, but I can handle it if it isn't. We noobs need all the help we can get.

If it's just burning you up to comment on something, shoot the person a PM and ask them if they would like some constructive criticism or guidance.

[Lee DeRaud]

Maybe we need a code-phrase to describe a truly hideous piece:
"Hey, could have been worse: at least it wasn't made from schlamaca!"

[Cecil Arnold]

A couple of things come to mind, especially in light of Lee's post. LOML dated a writer when she lived in LA and tells a story about going to a play with him. The play was so-so, but they were obligated to go back stage afterword. The writer (who wrote for Norm Lear) when asked by one of the lead actors how he liked the presentation said, "I just don't know how you do it, night after night." The other thing is that I once agreed to be a first reader in a writing contest. I discovered how really hard it is to (a) not judge something based on how you would write it, (or in this case design it) and (b) offer constructive criticism without damaging sometime fragile egos.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if someone ask for a critique, we should be careful while trying to be constructive, but if a critique is not ask for we might need to limit comments to, "I just don't know how you do it."

[Mark Singer]

Maybe we need a code-phrase to describe a truly hideous piece:
"Hey, could have been worse: at least it wasn't made from schlamaca!"

I like that!

[Jim Becker]

...once a piece of work is posted publicly, then one opens the "doors" to criticism.

I consider this a "yes, but..." situation. There are many, many folks who don't understand or see that to be the case and tact is still a good idea. Sometimes "not saying anything at all" is better...

[Bob Reda]

What really makes this tricky is that there are no standards by which we critique. There is no one table that all others have to be made to, so then we could critique to a standard table, or night stand, or whatever. We critique to what we are accustomed to. Then in becomes only our opinion that the top is too large or the legs too small. Then it becomes a matter of how much the individual respects your opinion. I'm sure that the greats of woodwroking had their critics when then first developed their style of furniture!

(Please don't hurt my feelings)
Bob

[tod evans]

bob, you`re right there are no real "givens" in furniture design and what is pleasing to your eye may or may not be to mine? or to marks or jims or johns..ect. but each of us should strive for perfection in our own right and by getting input from other craftsmen we`re getting learned opinions. but in the end they`re only opinions and everybody has one and it`s seldom that they all agree but it`s up to each of us to learn or not from whatever sources we choose whether they be books internet forums show judges or customers or even ourselves. i find that as i get older with more boards behind me that i`m not nearly as sattisfied with many of my earlier works as i was when i built them, just as i`m sure in 20 yrs. i`ll likely look back on my current work as not up to snuff or at least not up to my present tastes.......02 tod

[Lee DeRaud]

...we might need to limit comments to, "I just don't know how you do it."

Even when what you really want to say is, "I just don't know why you do it."

But of course that never happens here on SMC.

[Tom Hamilton]

Mark, as usual another thoughtful and interesting thread.

Design critique obviously needs to be handled with care; however, there are some rules and guidelines. If I do not know about the Golden Ratio or other generally accepted "rules" of design then your comments my teach me.

But if I ignore established design guidelines I do so at my own peril because they are the standard by which most design, at least USA/Western design, is judged.

So, I think a woodworker who wants to design their own project (not just build from purchased plans like I do) would want your professional, thoughtful opinion. When backed up with comments that refer to the generally accepted practices it becomes a teaching experience for you and a learning experience for the builder.

Thanks for all your contributions to this forum.

Best regards, Tom

[Earl Kelly]

Here's the way I see it. If an Amateur woodworker asks for a critique on a piece I try to not come across as negative, which is hard for me sometimes. But if a Pro offers up a piece of work and asks for a critique, you should be up front and completely honest. If the piece is well designed and contructed but the finish is amateurish, they should be told.

If your going to exhibit your work in public and ask for advice, you should be prepared to accept what's said good or bad. And use that info to grow and develop yourself and your work.

[John Bailey]

An analogy folks. I used to sing in bars for a living. Often I would throw in a few of my own songs. Just as often, nobody cared - nobody commented. It would have been better if they had thrown beer at me. (I sang in a few "chicken wire" bars.) At least I would have known they were paying attention. Good comments are best, but no comments are worse than bad comments.

In the 60's, there was a book called "I'm OK, You're OK." It talked about good strokes and bads strokes. Again, good strokes are best, but bad strokes are better than no strokes.

If I were to post a design (not likely) and nobody commented, ouch.

The moral of this story - Bad comments beats gettin' hit by a beer bottle.

John

[Ian Abraham]

As someone who is beginner self-taught woodworker some tactfull constructive critiscm can be a good thing.

There is a big difference between shooting someone down in flames and mentioning what you percieve as the main flaw and offering a solution for next time. Makes for more interesing threads where we can all learn something.

Cheers

Ian

[Mike Cutler]

I'm with Ken. It's easier to give and take feedback when the project is in the drawing phase. Call me chicken, but I'd be really careful about criticizing someone's work after it was finished. The emotional investment in the project can easily outweigh the capital investment. Then again, if a person asks, well........

[Aaron Beaver]

As someone who is beginner self-taught woodworker some tactfull constructive critiscm can be a good thing.

There is a big difference between shooting someone down in flames and mentioning what you percieve as the main flaw and offering a solution for next time. Makes for more interesing threads where we can all learn something.

Cheers

Ian

I agree with Ian, being new woodworking and not posting a lot I still would like to hear what I might be doing wrong or suggestions to make the piece better.