What should I say?

[Chris Barton]

There is a difference in asking for advice and displaying one's hard work efforts. Advice opens things up for suggestions. Posting a finished project is just to share. Few really want critiques, and usually ask for them if they do. I think offering critiques on pieces that are just shared is like calling someone's baby ugly. Remember the old saying, "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all?" That's my guide...

[Cecil Arnold]

Chris, I remember that old saying, but the first time I said, "she don't sweat much for a fat girl." I got slapped!!

[David Rose]

You know the old rule of criticism... start with comments about what is positive about the project then gently point out the negative with detail. Mark, I've watched you with a couple of things that you criticised. I thought/think you were very diplomatic about it. I think with someone you don't know, that it is usually a matter of thinking how you would feel if a total stranger commented on your work. It is possible to be frank and gentle at the same time. It is also possible to convey something you don't mean at all in words that contain no smile or body inflections. I am great at that.

When I've posted projects, that has been too long now , I've always had mixed comments. If someone came down hard, usually another member would come in and soften the blow. That is a good thing about posting to an audience of several folks.

There may be people who post for all the "atta boys". Those are nice, but when that is the only comment or there are no questions, I start to wonder. A little constructiive critique worked in with them is a very good thing, IMO.

So, I'm not far from completing the blanket chest that I've worked on off and on for about 3 years during illness and unusual events. I've been with many of you from "Pond days". The design is not my own, but many details are. The things important to me when I "show" it are:

questions of details that I may have not listed (this shows me that my piece is "worthy" of a look),

how did I do something about the project (same as above, except comments about how YOU would have done it would be nice if you have a better idea),

design ideas that differ from what I did (I hope no one is above learning ),

anything that might be done still to enhance the piece (like adding molding or a cut that can still be done or levelling finish).

You don't have to comment about a ding here and there that seems to plague me when a project sits around for too long a time.

This stuff isn't all design of course, some of it involves workmanship. And pictures can be deceiving about things like finish and nice sharp edges where they are appropriate.

My suspicion is that a person will only post a pic of something of which they are proud. If it is horrid, use the code words. If it is worth a post, really look at it and make comments either way. The average poster will probably appreciate it.

One thing that really irks me is when someone makes a "hard critique", asks for more info, then never posts back. If it is worth the time of the critique, it is worth an explanation. This is not a criticism of this forum, but I won't say that about some of them.

David

[Vaughn McMillan]

When I post pics of a finished project, I do so with the understanding (and hope) that others will feel free to offer critique, suggestions, questions, and opinions. I even try to make it a point to ask for comments, because I genuinely want to improve. Still, I feel I'm my harshest critic, and if 'm not happy with the way someting turns out, I won't post it in public. So if someone trashes my work, chances are I'll shine it on and not worry about it, since I know I'm happy with it. Constructive criticism though, is taken to heed. Especially when it comes from one of several people here on SMC whose opinion I hold highly. (Mark, you're one of them for sure.)

When looking at other folks' work, I've gotten to the point where I'll generally comment only if something about it stands out to me. There's a lot of good work shown here that I don't comment on. Not because I didn't like it, but because I'm enough of a thread hog here anyway, so I try not to speak up if nothing really jumped out to me. There are exceptions, and I do try to make it a point to compliment some of the folks around here who seem like they can use some encouragement.

If critique is requested, I'll offer it if I think I have something useful to add.

If it's really bad, then I'll use the trick others have mentioned...I'll ask a question instead. Something like: "What in the world were you thinking? Are you daft, man?!"

- Vaughn

[Zahid Naqvi]

Mark, as far as I am concerned I always welcome your comments on any aspect of my work (if I ever get anything done). I have never had any formal training in art of any sort and as such all my doings are basically instinctive (or copy and adopt). Considering your extensive experience in architecture and woodworking, I kinda feel previlidged that I can ask people like to you to look at my stuff and tell me what they think about it.

Everything I post on SMC is fair game to all members. No matter how hard you guys try, you can never be as critical as my wife is

[Larry Browning]

Mark,
I have only skimmed over the responses to this post, so if someone else has said this, sorry.
I think that if you only give out praise and never offer criticism, then this somehow takes away the impact of true praise.
For instance, there is this lady here at work that is always changing her hair do, and she always asks me if I like it. Well, for several years I just said that it looked great, even when it didn't. One day when she asked me I said I thought it looked like crap! and that I thought she had just forgotten to fix her hair that morning. (I really did this by the way and I am still alive) Well, when she changed her hair again a week or two later, she asked me again what I thought. This time I liked it much better and I told her so. She said that because of me telling her that I didn't like it before, she valued my opinion over anyone else's in the office, because she knew I would always tell her exactly what I really thought.
Praise from someone who only gives out praise is really not very believable and sort of useless. However, praise from someone who also gives out criticism is much more valuable and creditable.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I just completed my first college level creative writing workshop/class, and discovered a couple of things about criticism that may be applicable here:

1) Even if you don't respect the work, respect the effort.

2) Don't simply say it's trash or great, it's important to say why, which means you must know something about what you're talking about. (And that sentence hardly even parses, certainly doesn't read.)

3) It does no one any good to not respond when you have something to say, neither the presenter nor the would be commentator. The presenter learns nothing. The commentator gets frustrated and starts threads like this. (Hi, Mark.)

That's it, we had a great class and all learned a lot about how what we're doing is appealing or not and why. That is, how to improve.

Pam

[Lee DeRaud]

When I post pics of a finished project, I do so with the understanding (and hope) that others will feel free to offer critique, suggestions, questions, and opinions. I even try to make it a point to ask for comments, because I genuinely want to improve. Still, I feel I'm my harshest critic, and if 'm not happy with the way someting turns out, I won't post it in public.

I tend to post almost everything (to the immense boredom of all ), but if there's something obvious I did wrong or that I'm not happy with, I'll usually mention it myself.

Mind you, that almost never happens: at this stage, I'm pretty much happy with any completed project that looks better than my dog's "lawn ornaments".

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Here I come, Mark.

I don't know how "Thin" skinned I am, but I respect the people here at the Creek, if for no other reason than I see what kind of work they do. If I ask for comments, I hope I get them. Obviously, there are different ways of offering suggestions. Some can be Very direct and hard to take, while others are positive and help refine techniques and improve the final project.

I, for one, would prefer a PM, if you or anyone else found something that REALLY was BAD, rather than waiving it in front of the world.

I, too, have seen things that I haven't commented upon, that could have used improvement. I'm not sure that I am good enough to be making judgements of others work, except when it, pleases me, impresses me, makes me think, or otherwive intrigues me.

Just some thoughts. Not necessarily important.

Bruce

[Barry Stratton]

.....sometimes you just have to shake your head and remind yourself, "Well, thank god it won't be in my house!"

Those would be my turnings!

As a rookie turner, I am trying to improve my skills (actually I'm still trying to decide if I have any). I chose the Creek because of the friendly, helpful atmosphere. When I ask for critiques, I really want to know what folks think....how could I do the next one better....did I actually do something right?

I have recieved a few PM's from folks whose work I really admire privately giving me advice and apologizing if they are hurting my feelings. Those notes REALLY HAVE HELPED, and I honestly don't mind if they are posted on the thread for all to see. After all, it was that EXACT thing, friendly help, advice, and encouragement, that brought me here in the first place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that MANY people benefit from helpful advice, not just the person receiving it.

Great topic Mark, THANKS.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

For the much more experienced guys and gals, it must be hard to not say "WHAT the HECK were you thinking" from time to time, for sure, but I know that I appreciate the good, the bad and the ugly comments.

When it comes to the turning stuff, I'm having fun, and I'm learning, but to learn, I need to make mistakes, and I need to have someone show me my mistakes. Sure, I can see a lot of my own mistakes, but, as I am learning and trying to improve, there are going to be some things I miss.

When I post pics of my latest round(ish) stuff, the "Atta-boys" are nice, of course, but the questions, and comments on how I can improve are of much more value to me, but what do I know, I'm just a beginner


Great thread Mark!

[Mark Singer]

There are some great comments here and I really appreciate them.....if ones interest is improving as a woodworker then they should be prepared to hear a review of their work....for 20 years or so I have been asked by various Architectural Universities to give Senior Thesis Critiques on students work....and I have always tried to be supportive and yet let them know enough of the truth to help them to learn. What did upset me is if little effort was shown....some looked like they started the final years project a few days before it was due....I would get a bit tough on these students...probably dad was paying for their education....or party festival...
At SMC I usually see very fine work in both design and crafstmanship...sometimes I see great crafstmanship and the design could use some help....sometimes some real help...It is difficult to smile and say it all great when I think there is room for improvement....It would be a much better project the design was up to the standards of the workmanship...what to do?
It is difficult to judge asthetics and it is difficult to hear from the designers perspective since it is very subjective....
Occasionaly at the Senior Thesis Review another Architect or Profesor would really rip a project verbally....I have even hear of one professor that would smash a students models with his foot....Though that is hard to imagine the lesson is that the project itself and the model are not as important as what they stand to learn from it
That is the crossroads for me.....don't say anything....be tactful....tell the truth and make enemies and hurt peoples feelings...tell them how nice they hold the router in the picture
Thanks for your input....I have listened and will tread with great care and remember its all in the interest of improving...You hold the chisel very nice also

[Lars Thomas]

Mark, while I certainly don't have the eye for design that you have, but I know rotary cut oak ply when I see it. I hate to see when a newbie puts a ton of effort into a project (that is otherwise great), than see it was partially/wholly rotary oak ply. Sure, I just don’t like the wild, unnatural grain. But more than anything, it bugs me because the newbie just didn’t know something else was available (through no fault of their own).

I’ve had this on my mind for awhile; this seemed like a good place to post it. If you have a project that calls for oak ply, please take the time to find plain sawn oak ply. You will be much happier with the results.

Mark, with respect to your opening question. . . I would say if someone posts a project at any stage (from conceptual to completed) or even cross posts it in the Design Forum, then we own it to ourselves to be completely honest - pointing out both the good and the not-so-good points. However, if it is posted in one of the main-line forums, a more subdued critique may be appropriate.

[Jim Hinze]

Mark,

As a still relative newbie, I appreciate any and all feedback, positive or negative. I personally have a fairly thick skin, so negative comments spoken with a positive spin or just direct affect me the same way.

For what it's worth, I beleive most SMC'ers *WANT* to get better in their craft. For that to happen, poor designs, poor proportions, etc must be relayed, otherwise folks will continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

For my own work, when I post my next pieces, I would hope folks be brutally honest.... especially with design and proportion because I don't have an eye for it...

Ps. Mark, would you be willing to do a tutorial on the "golden means" and how it applies to wood working?

[Andy Hoyt]

If you really mean this and live by it Mark:

"All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

Then the answer is clear - at least it is to me.

Your tag line speaks on so many levels.