Need advice from coaches and parents...

[Tim Morton]

I think that this practice is SO wrong. With the prevailing winds in school these days to be "eat the weak" with kids just being SO cruel to other kids in a way that seems to be way worse and more common than when we were kids....the teacher seems to be bringing one more level of emotional abuse to the table. If I were in your position it would be a tough call...I agree with the people who say talk with the teacher one on one....but that may have its pitfalls too...you do not want to make the matter worse by coming off as the whining parent....i think it might be something I would handle by dropping a note in the principles drop box....alerting him of the practice and asking him to "drop-in" on the class in the last minutes of class when this is taking place. This would work in our small schol district as we have a very hands on principle....in a larger school it may be someone else who would handle this kind of abuse. Regardless of whether YOUR kid makes it out of the bottom 6...there will always be 6 kids there and that is not right....PE is a required subject and there is no way at that age that the someone should be called out for not excelling...can you imagien if this were english class and the kids with the 6 lowest test scores were single out in front of the class and made to do extra work>?

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Chances are, if I made a mistake on my job, everyone will know about it including my boss, boss' boss, and so on. But, I understand your point.

Good luck to the original poster...
-Jeff

[Chris Padilla]

Martin,

Good luck with your chosen method...lots of excellent advice here. Going through a few things here at work (not school), I've learned that going through the "chain of command" tends to work the best but can be slow and frustrating.

I wonder, can you even talk to the PE/Coach/Teacher without a superior getting involved? These classes are during school hours so I wonder....

[Andy Fox]

Martin,

Many good points posted here, but I think those of John Bailey, Norman, and Jeffrey stand out.

I have exercise-induced asthma, and always had a little extra weight. I was also a major "sidestream smoker" from ages 0-15. I think a physician could prescribe something that will help your son tremendously with his asthma.

I was always physically active as a child, usually more so than many others my age. But I hated PE class. I still hate PE class! We usually did something that seemed like a complete waste of time and energy and sweat, then we had to go hurry up and take a "2 minute shower" before math class. Yeah right, that 2 minute shower really helps.

Despite the efforts of PE classes and mainstream education to convince me that exercise had to be a ridgid, make-you-feel-crappy routine squeezed into the middle of the day, I still manage to enjoy exercise and outdoor, individual sports that suit me better. Running a cool, narrow, woodland dirt trail in the morning or evening is a much different experience than running circles around the paved high school track 5 times with 30 others. I even managed to complete a short biathlon (run 5K, bicycle 15K, run 5K) after getting out of high school.

Just like the rest of mainstream education, physical education is pretty far removed from real life. It helps some, and is better than nothing, but it also prevents many from reaching their full potential.

[Glenn Clabo]

Martin,
Much has been said that I agree with...but I will also give you my personel experience.
I was a "jock" in HS...All State football defensive end and offensive tackle and indoor track shot/40 yard dash. However, the only course I ever failed was gym! I refused to do some of the things the gym teacher insisted I do because of my size...like gymnastic rings and highbar. I discussed this with my parents and they agreed to let me handle it my way.

I went on to coach baseball through high school and Legion for over 20 years. I never once made a less talented or physically less able player suffer physical discomfort for not being able to do what others can.

I'd first discuss this with your son to see what he wants to do and come up with a plan. Explain to him that you are simply being a parent and are worried about his health...but do understand the peer pressure thing. Discussing this with the gym teacher together would be my suggestion to your son...then try hard to keep your cool when you do...and take the moment to show what adults should do in this situation. This practice needs to stop not only for your son but for others who are too scared to make a stand and the well being of the teacher and school. It's not just simply wrong...A death or ambulance ride with a law suite related to a childs health is not what anyone wants...but what they are setting themselves up for.

[Chris Padilla]

Running a cool, narrow, woodland dirt trail in the morning or evening is a much different experience than running circles around the paved high school track 5 times with 30 others.

How about the crunching sound of freshly-fallen snow on an early morning jog?? God, I miss that and my nostrils tensing up from the cold!

However, in defense of school, they don't often have access to such places...you get the track (if your school has one) or have to run around the inside of a gymnasium.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I don't think that the asthma is the issue here. In a required class, PE or otherwise, the people who finish last shouldn't be punished. The people who finish first should be rewarded. This sort of bully attitude that the PE teacher has might be hard to overcome but I would talk to him first anyway. Were it me I don't think I'd focus on the asthma though. I'd bring it up but I'd concentrate on the unfairness of his methods of motivation. As has already been mentioned, there will always be people at the back of the pack. Focusing on just the asthma will mean that he'll still be able continue punishing the people in last place except for your son. How do you think that will make him feel? He shouldn't be punishing any of them.

In grammar school I had a PE/Wrestling/football coach who was a real jerk. He used to pick on one or two guys consistently. He finally went too far when he was teaching wrestling during PE class and did a move called, "Banana Splits" on his favorite target just to get a laugh from the class. Pulled the kid's groin muscles pretty badly and man did he get in trouble over that one. Didn't get fired though. That was just one of his many episodes of being a bully. Fortunately I was a pretty good athlete so I didn't ever get picked on in PE but I only did wrestling for one year and never signed up for his other sports. Track and field for me. I'll bet your PE teacher would've got along well with mine. Don't take any crap from him. If he shows any sort of attitude towards you go straight to the principle. I don't think you're going to have an easy time of it with him but I hope you do.

Bruce

[Andy Fox]

I don't think that the asthma is the issue here. In a required class, PE or otherwise, the people who finish last shouldn't be punished....

Good point Bruce!

In grammar school.... He finally went too far when he was teaching wrestling during PE class and did a move called, "Banana Splits" on his favorite target just to get a laugh from the class. Pulled the kid's groin muscles pretty badly and man did he get in trouble over that one.

In grammar school?! At my schools, nothing even closely resembling wrestling was ever even mentioned in PE, much less at that grade level! I would've loved to be in that kid's place when I was that kid's age, as it would've given me the opportunity to demonstrate some karate moves in well-justified self-defense. "Well, that's a slick move Mr. Abuser, but please allow me to demonstrate how we counter things in karate......" I'd be very concerned with my child's safety and well-being if they failed to defend theirself in this situation.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Good point Bruce!



In grammar school?! At my schools, nothing even closely resembling wrestling was ever even mentioned in PE, much less at that grade level! I would've loved to be in that kid's place when I was that kid's age, as it would've given me the opportunity to demonstrate some karate moves in well-justified self-defense. "Well, that's a slick move Mr. Abuser, but please allow me to demonstrate how we counter things in karate......" I'd be very concerned with my child's safety and well-being if they failed to defend theirself in this situation.

This teacher/coach was a pretty muscular guy and I doubt that any 7th or 8th grader was going to hurt him without kicking him in the groin. I watched the Karate practice of a the kid of a friend of mine. There were a lot of skilled kids there of all ages but I wasn't at all convinced that any of the smaller kids would have much of an effect on me if they tried. Sorry but at that age most of the damage to an adult would either be because of surprise of because the adult let them. This kid was barely able to get up let alone retaliate. I really don't think I'd want any kid of mine fighting with a teacher no matter what he did to him. I hope you're not encouraging your kids to punch or kick teachers. Do that nowdays and you probably would end up getting arrested. It's one thing to encourage your kid to stand up to other students but ecouraging them to fight a teacher is pretty much the same as encouraging them to fight the cops. I hope you have a good lawyer if they punch a teacher.

This teacher got reprimanded but that was all. The kid did get up and limped out of the class and took off from school. Nobody followed him and he didn't come back for a couple of hours. He didn't get into any trouble once he told the principal what the teacher had done.

That teacher was still teaching there for at least 20 years longer, maybe more. I was on his flag football team in the sixth grade. A few days into practice he got mad at all of us so he set up a routine where every single player had to stand while every other player got a 5 yard running start to slam into him. This wasn't a drill. It was punishment because were weren't listening to him closely enough. We all had bruised forearms and some had split lips/bloody noses and because it was flag football there were no pads anywhere, of course. Half of the team quit that day including me. The upside is that after they barely had enough for a team everybody who stuck around got to play every game. I'm sure the abuse continued. 6th grade!

Bruce

[Martin Shupe]

Wow!!!

When I posted, I thought I would only get a few responses, so I thank each and every one of you that took the time to respond to my problem.

I discussed this with my wife and son. Many of your points were brought up and are quite relevant.

1) Chain of command. My wife, a former teacher made it clear to me that there is nothing worse than skipping the chain of command. Kudo's to all of those who brought that to my attention.

2) Talk to the coach first. I attempted to do that this morning, but he was, before school even started, out with the 7th and 8th grade football team. That's Texas, and dedication on his part that I respect. I was also glad to see them practicing in the relative cool of the day, as opposed to the afternoon.

3) Punishment for being slow. I agree with most of the folks who think this is not right, and that the winners should be rewarded instead. I was very torn about how to handle this. My son does not wish to be "singled out". He has only had to run one day in a week, and in other activities, he is not always on the losing team. My wife feels that if he only has to do extra push ups and sit ups once a week, we should be ok with that. I reluctantly agree with her. If it was extra laps, I would be much more concerned, due to the asthma issue. For now we are going to monitor this, and see how it goes. Yes, I feel like I am letting the coach slide, but my son and wife don't want to turn the coach against my son when the school year has just started.

4) What did we do? For now, we sent a carefully worded email, informing the coach of our son's condition (in case he didn't know). We explained that on certain days he would not be able to keep up, and that if he asks to go to the nurse for a treatment, he should be allowed to go immediately. We received what I think is a very satisfactory response, with the coach saying that my son's health is paramount. I am very relieved to hear that.

5) I know my son with never be the star football player, but I don't want him to be a couch potato either. This summer we started with barbells to build his upper body strength. He seems to like the weight lifting, and has moved up from 5 to 8 lbs, and I think is close to going to 10 lbs. It does not seem like much, but he is skin and bones. He says he can tell a difference. Time will tell. We also do Boy Scouts as our extracurricular activity, which includes some hiking, and someday, backpacking. I hope and pray that one day he will grow out of his asthma, as so many parents have said happened with their children.

Thanks again for all of your posts. I know I don't post as much as when the Creek was smaller, but I still try to read and keep up with what is going on here. Your assistance in the matter is very much appreciated by my wife, myself, and my son. Thank you all.

[John Bailey]

Congratulations Martin. It sounds as though you've come up with a well thought out, reasonable plan. And it sounds like the youngster is handling it well also - taking actions to better himself and not be a victim. Sounds like you've good a keeper. (Just keep him away from the turners!)

John

[Ken Fitzgerald]

(Just keep him away from the turners!)

John

And just what did you mean by that comment Mr. Bailey?

Well thought out plan Martin!

[Andy Fox]

Bruce, I'm not trying to argue with you about this. It sounds like you misunderstood me about the appropriateness of self-defense.

This teacher/coach was a pretty muscular guy and I doubt that any 7th or 8th grader was going to hurt him without kicking him in the groin. I watched the Karate practice of a the kid of a friend of mine....

A lot depends on the style.... Some styles are power-oriented, while others emphasize using a larger opponent's strength and size against him.

I really don't think I'd want any kid of mine fighting with a teacher

I completely agree.

no matter what he did to him.

I completely disagree.

I hope you're not encouraging your kids to punch or kick teachers. Do that nowdays and you probably would end up getting arrested. It's one thing to encourage your kid to stand up to other students but ecouraging them to fight a teacher is pretty much the same as encouraging them to fight the cops. I hope you have a good lawyer if they punch a teacher.

Bruce, I think you're confusing retaliation with self-defense? Self-defense involves inflicting only the amount of injury required to prevent harm to another or onesself or one's property. Escape/evasion is generally the goal, not vengeance or a fighting match. What if the teacher had decided to go further and break or dislocate bones? What if the demonstrated move was one which compresses the carotid artery, causing blackout, brain damage, or death? It sounds to me like a properly trained child could've escaped with less (if any) injury to the teacher than what the child suffered. And, there are plenty of self-defense techniques which don't involve kicking and punching. I used to wrestle with my best friend in high school. He was on the team, I wasn't, but we both benefited from those friendly matches. Even he was well-trained enough to know how far to push holds without inflicting injury.

If I ever get thrown in jail for preventing my children from being abused by a teacher, I will wear the orange jumpsuit with honor. The wrestling "demo", as it was described, seems like an obvious cover for physical abuse. It would be different if the boy had signed up for the wrestling team or something like that.

Abusers of all types cover their actions, some better than others. That's how they get away with it for so long. An impromptu wrestling demo sounds like a convenient cover. Follow the news stories of any large metro-area, and you'll see an alarming (although thankfully small) number of teachers sentenced on various abuse charges.

I hope you have a good lawyer if they punch a teacher.

On the other hand, I hope that teacher has a good lawyer and plenty of favorable witnesses if my kids are ever put in a situation so threatening that they are forced to go to the extreme, and resort to punching a teacher in self-defense!

I have a great deal of respect for nonviolence, teachers, and any other person. When a teacher engages in any type of abuse, they cross the line and cease to be a teacher--they have become a threat and a fugitive.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Sorry Andy, but I don't think I misunderstood you. I don't care much about the different styles or methods of self defense. I seriously doubt there's a light weight 7th grader in the world that could've defended himself against that 225Lb, muscular, former college football player, former college wrestler when he put him into that, "Banana split" hold that he got him into. His head, hands, and legs were immobilized and he was put into a forced splits position. I doubt you would've been able to get out of it as an adult. This was during a normal PE class. Our school did all sorts of sports from, "Ball" sports, gymnastics, wrestling, track and field, even square dancing. The teacher was using him as an example and picked on him frequently but it wasn't just a spur of the moment wrestling hold he threw on him. We all were wrestling, just not all of us with the teacher.

Yeah, I've had several friends who were into various martial arts over the years. I'm familiar with some of the different styles. I don't believe for a second that any kid that weighed about 80 or 90 pounds could've got the better of this guy or any other large, fit adult. I know, it's all about technique... One punch and the kid's going down hard. You said your piece, I've said mine. We obviously disagree about what should've happened but the difference was that I was there. I do believe that it's good for any kid to defend them self if they can but the point of my original post was to point out that there are sometimes bullies disguised as teachers, not whether or not the kid should've done something about it.

Bruce

[John Bailey]

And just what did you mean by that comment Mr. Bailey?

Well thought out plan Martin!

I'm not bitin' Ken