Looking at Hybrid table saws/ Incra table saw fence

[Charles Green]

I'm looking to upgrade table saws and I'm interested in getting one of the hybrids out there.

I have a few questions regarding them.

Any preference on the Grizzly or Delta?

How is the noise level on them? Since they are hybrids is it more of a contractor noise or cabinet?

Any drawbacks to them that I may not be thinking of?
I'm just a hobbyist that wants something a little beefier than my 7 year old Ryobi Bt3k and a better fence.

Also, I'm looking at the Incra fence for it. I've never laid my hands on one but it appears to be the ideal type of fence. Will these fit the hybrids? I'm guessing they use a standard fence but haven't seen anyone with that set up.

For anyone that has used the Incra fence is it worthwhile or would you just stick with a Beismeyer?

Thanks for any help you have for me.

[scott spencer]

Hi Charles - I tried to answer this before the big crash!

Most of the newer generation hybrids offer many of the same advantages, but there are some differences in the design of the underpinnings. The noise level will likely be a moot point....they're all quiet....the spinning blade will make the most noise, and the selection of blade will make the most difference. Because the motor is inside, they'll typically be a little quieter than a contractor saw, but not enough to be of any consequence.

The Grizzly has a cast blade shroud that connects the front and rear trunnions...it's much like the design on the DW746, GI 50-220, and older Emerson made Craftsman and current Ridgid contractor saws. It's a sturdy design...the only disadvantage that comes to mind is that it features the typical table mounted trunnions bolted to the top, whereas the new Craftsman 22104/22114/22124 hybrids have cabinet mounted trunnions which are easier to adjust and hold settings better....more like those on a cabinet saw. The Delta and the Craftsman hybrids use connecting rods between the front and rear trunnions, which is a design used on many of the traditional contractor saws, and was occasionally susceptable to racking when the motor was tilted if the rods twisted. They did make some improvements with the hybrid version which seem to help....the rods are larger diameter than those on contractor saws, and I've even heard rumor that the rods are indexed at the trunnions to reduce the chance of twisting. I haven't read of it being problematic with these two saws yet. The Delta also uses table mounted trunnions like most of the others vs cabinet mount trunnions of the Craftsman design. I'd love to see someone use cabinet mounted trunnions in conjuction with the cast blade shroud as connectors, but no one is currently offering both those advantages.

I think the Griz design has some advantages over the Delta, but it hasn't been out long enough to be well proven yet. I'm unsure of what's involved for any potential motor replacement....as in, can the motor be replaced with an off the shelf motor, or does it need a propriety replacement from Grizzly. Not sure what's involved to tension the belt either. The same questions would apply to the GI 50-220 hybrid as well. The Delta and Craftsman use a standard NEMA 56 frame and gravity tensioning...very straight forward.

I've been extremely happy with my 22124 which replaced a very nice GI contractor saw. FWIW, it was rated above the GI, DW, and Jet hybrids over a year ago by Workbench.

The Delta draws 15/7.5 amps (110v/220v) and will run on any standard 20 amp 110v circuit. The Griz draws 20/10 amps (110v/220v) and will likely require a 30 amp circuit or 220v line. If you've got 220v, the Griz 1023 3hp cabinet saw is worth consideration. All of the other hybrids will run on a standard circuit as well.

As far as fences go...the stock Biesemeyer style fences that come with many of the hybrids and cabinet saws are excellent. Most people love their accuracy, simplicity, and reliablility...they're extremely rugged and goof proof...set 'em and forget 'em. The Jointech and Incra designs are the ultimate in hyper precision and repeatability, but have some quirks. The alumunim isn't as robust, they take up alot of space to the right side, plus it's not easy to remove the fence from the table. I'd suggest giving the Biese a try before looking to replace with the Incra. Wood Mag rated the Biese over the Incra for those reasons...you might not need more precision than the Biese offers.

http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268

[Greg Koch]

As always, a very concise, complete non biased post from Scott. Always informative, especially when it concerns a hybrid saw or saw blades.... Thanks, Scott.

Ditto what he said about the Biese fence too. It's a joy to work with, and rock solid. I have a Home version now, but looked at the Incra. They are pricey, but would like to try one in the future...maybe when I move up to a cabinet saw and bigger shop.

[Narayan Nayar]

I'll offer another opinion on the fence. I love my Incra TS-LS fence. I think all fences have "quirks" (such as the "bump to set" quirk on Bies clones)--who cares what a wood mag thinks? The real question is which quirks suit your style, budget, or shop better, and no magazine, spec sheet, or expert is better qualified to make that decision than you, and you're better qualified if you have something to compare against.

I'd agree with Scott and Greg on that point--give the stock fence a try before changing out the fence. I did my time on a Bies clone for years before making the jump to Incra. If anything, it makes me appreciate working with the Incra more. There are things a Bies does better and things an Incra does better. One thing I miss about the Bies is the ability to shove a cut piece of wood between the blade and fence, lock the fence down, and make a "mirrored" cut. It's not that straightforward with the Incra. That said, if I know I cut something on the Incra to dimension x, I can cut that dimension X anytime I want, even after making many cuts at other dimensions, or even moving the whole fence, knowing it'll be just about perfect. For me, it's less about the precision (I could really care less about the .001" measuring accuracy) and more about the repeatability (which is kind of the same thing but not really). Also, I have a router table extension on my table saw, so I get double-duty from the TS-LS, and the Incra makes an absolutely wonderful router fence, IMHO.

If you can catch a Woodworking Show (the season's about to start up again) and see the Incra rep do a demo, that's a good time to decide, particularly if you have some experience with your stock fence to compare it to. If you're not unhappy with your Bies clone, I'd see no reason to switch, quite frankly. The Incra simply suits my style better.

[Mark Riegsecker]

[quote=Greg Koch]As always, a very concise, complete non biased post from Scott. Always informative, especially when it concerns a hybrid saw or saw blades.... Thanks, Scott.

What is this hybrid saw you guys write about and how does it compare to a (real saw?)

Mark

[scott spencer]

What is this hybrid saw you guys write about and how does it compare to a (real saw?)
Mark

Hi Mark - A hybrid is sort of cross between a traditional contractor saw and a full 3hp cabinet saw. They're built mostly with homeowner/hobbyist shops in mind. They're =/< 2hp and most will run on 120v, all have internal motors vs external, many offer full enclosures. They have similar power and ruggedness as a contractor saw, but with some of the advantages of improved dust collection, added mass, and smaller footprint a cabinet saw offers....some hybrids even have the cabinet mounted trunnions. They'll do just about every task a hobbyist will need with the right blade choice, but don't offer the power and industrial robustness of a commercial cabinet saw.

Contractor saw:



Cabinet saw:



Hybrid:



Craftsman 22124 trunnions:

[Mike Hill]

Hi Charles: I have the Grizzly 1023 SL and am very satisfied. I spent some time carefully setting it up and have never regretted it. Seems to stay perfectly in alignment and the fence system that came with the saw (Shop Fox) is extremely accurate. I added a Biesemeyer splitter, Incra Miter Gauge and aftermarket blade guard, then built an out feed table. To be honest, I think now that I could have built an accurate miter gauge using the included gauge with a wooden fence and stops. The Incra needs constant adjustment. Good luck in your search.
Mike

[Art Davis]

Just thought I would put in my two bits worth. The Biesemeyer is certainly a nice, rock solid fence. But the reviews all rave about it and show it in their pics of table saws being used---and no one mentions that the quality control is lousy. When I got mine, it was supposed to fit my Delta contractor's saw without drilling. After a lot of time spent on the phone with Biesemeyer, I had to just give up and drill new holes. Then I found out that just a slight touch on the adjustment screws would either cause the fence to bind on the rail or flop around loosely. Finally, I discovered that the set screws had been painted white! I scratched out the paint from the threads, cleaned everything up---and now I have a great fence. But someone should be mentioning problems like that, but no one does---just raves.

I'll get off my soapbox now with the repeat that it really is a nice fence, when all is said and done.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Remember Craftsman 22124 is on sale at Sears.com for $699, with free at store pick up. Offer expires 09-06-06. Order it and two hours later pick it up. If I didn't already own a Uni and three Delta contractors saws, this saw would be my first choice.

[Charles Green]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

I seem to be leaning a little towards a Grizzly 1023. I work in my garage and it would be easy to add 220 as my box is 10 feet from where I want the saw.
I decided to upgrade a bit not because I feel I need it now, but I think it will be something I'd probably want to do in another 5 years or so.

I'm going to try the Shop fox fence for a while. I like the idea of being able to repeat cuts on the incra but since I'm upping the saw cost I have to cut something out. I constantly forget to cut a piece of a certain size that needs to match some others and that is where I think I'd like the Incra.

I'm sure I'll be back with many questions when I get it in and need to set it up. I'm tired of cutting 8/4 maple on my old Ryobi and look forward to some power.

Thanks again everyone.

[Mark Riegsecker]

Thanks Scott for that great response.

In that case I'm waiting for hybrid fuel something between $1.50 and $2.00


Mark

[scott spencer]

Thanks Scott for that great response.

In that case I'm waiting for hybrid fuel something between $1.50 and $2.00


Mark

Yeah...I forgot one: