Plane selection help setting up my workshop- LN or LV or combination

[Robert Trotter]

Hi people, I would like some opinions of what hand planes to get.

This is my first post but I have been lurking around reading for while now.

I did have a fairly long post ready to go giving a background view of what work I ussualy do and details about my woodworking views etc etc. to help people give better advice but thought it might be too long. So here is a condensed version. (Are long posts frowned upon?)

I am setting up my small workshop with some quality tools.
My to buy list is:-

Veritas medium shoulder plane
LN LA adjustable mouth block plane
LN mortice chsel set of 5
LN socket chisel set of 5
Starret combination square (3 piece) from Lee Valley
Titemark III marking gauge from Lie-Nielsen
Veritas Mark II honing guide

LN140 OR LN rabbet block plane (60 1/2R )
Low angle jack = Veritas or Lie-Nielsen
smoothing plane

I have and use japanese saws and will keep these for now.


What do you think? Sound reasonable? Any suggestions? These will be maxing out my budget.

Help #1

I was wanting something to help trim tennons so was looking at the 140 or the 60 1/2. One of these with the medium shoulder plane should be good I thought. And they would be good for rabbetting too. But which one?

Is one better suited to a specific type of work? With 60 1/2R you must work from both side into the middle of the tenon cheek, is that right? With the 140 do you just push all the way through because of the scew blade. Are there any problems with either?


Help #2

LA jack plane - which one?
The LN LA jack or the Veritas LA jack?
I have read that they are very simar in performance. However the Veritas is more of a 5 1/2 and the LN a #5 jack. I also understand the inovations of the Veritas. So I hope this doesn't turn into a veritas is better than a LN or visavera. But in use, are there woodworking situations where a 5 1/2 is better or a #5 is better? Fore example is the Veritas a bit too heavy and wide for smaller work or for chair frames and the like?

Also for the Lie-Nielsen LA jack owners, do you have any real problems with the lack of lateral adjustment, or shorter toe area, or resetting the blade etc.? I think you may have guessed that I haven't used metal planes a lot.

I will get the Mark II honing guide so will maintaining a square edge be difficult for a beginner user? I am pretty good with my hands and pick up things easily. I have small japanese planes and have until now does all my blades free hand.


Help #3

Smoother. Which one? (only one )
My choices are LN LA smoother, LN #4 bronze, LN#4 1/2, Veritas BU LA smoother. I don't mind mixing brands.

I was thinking of the #4 originally before finding out about the bevel up planes and reading through the differnt forums. That's what me dad and grandad had. But now I don't know what to get.
I was thinking of the smoother for general work on smaller pieces and for smoothing.

Are smoothing planes really just for large surfaces like table tops? Or are they equally usefull for smoothing narrower pieces like rails and styles and chair legs, box construction etc.?

Is the Veritas BU smoother or the #4 1/2 getting too heavy or wide for smaller or narrower work. Or would using the LN block plane be better?

I think that for any shooting, i would use the LA jack. but all the smoothers except the Veritas could also be used.




Some background:-

I suppose I should let you know a bit about the work I might be doing. Getting longer already. Sorry

I am a hobbiest, not a professional making my living from woodworking. I love tools, beauty and quality. I think quality tools that look nice and feel nice translate into better quality work and a better experience of woodworking. Hence Lie-Nielsen and Veritas.
I will be doing mostly small to medium sized project in a mix of softwoods and hardwoods and ply. Chairs, side tables, boxes and the like, some desks and beds for the kids. Some outdoor furniture. I will be doing alot of mortice and tennon joinery. I doubt if I would be making any large dining tables. the largest surface I would do is probaly my work bench and that will be a one off thing.

I will be going the neander way. All hand. I don't have a table saw or jointer and will not be getting them.

Umm... That's about it.

[Gary Herrmann]

Hi Robert. I don't think you can go wrong with either LN or LV. I myself have the LV LA planes that can use the same irons - jointer, jack and smoother. I've been very pleased with their performance. They also feel good in my hands.

I'd recommend you go to a Woodcraft or other store near you that may carry them to see how they feel. Both companies make high quality tools.

The LNs are beautiful tools. I like some of the innovations that LV has put into their low angle planes. Given my budget, I also like their prices.

I do envy you the chisels on your list. When I finally upgrade from Marples, I hope to do the same.

[Mark Sweigart]

Set of Mortise chisels? Why? From my understanding, most people only end up using 1 or 2 sizes. This might be a bit excessive.

Also, you said you are going to do everything by hand. Does this include dimensioning lumber, or are you just going to buy S4S? If you are dimensioning lumber it is usually done with 3 planes (sometimes 4): jack, jointer, and smoother.

mark

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Robert,

New or vintage for the tools. Vintage will stretch the dollar considerably. Also, since you list chairs, don't forget about a spokeshave or two. Perhaps a large gouge for shaping seats along with a good shopmade mallet. Chair devils are handy scrapers for sizing and smoothing round chair legs and other parts. LV just started carrying them, but this is a tool you can also make.

As well, braces and a variety of bits, and hand drills are necessary for more than just the chairs. Spoon bits are very useful for chair making, but even auger bits work well.

I'll let the others make plane recommendations, but thought I would mention the chair tools.

Take care, Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Robert,

Along with the nice choices in planes/handtools you are considering, look into sharpening systems as well. If you've been lurking alot, there are many ways to skin that cat but don't frett too much, their end result is the same...just pick a method you think you might like and go for it.

One recommendation I'll make:

Instead of a dedicated shoulder plane, look at the Vertias Bullnose plane that combines a chisel plane and a bullnose plane into one. At the start, it will serve you well as a decent shoulder plane for trimming/cleaning up tenons/rabbets or a chisel plane for cleaning up corner rabbets. However, it won't clean up dados/grooves very well unless you have 1" wide dadoes or grooves!

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48945

[tod evans]

robert, since you didn`t mention price and did mention a love of beauty and quality you owe it to yourself to look here;
http://www.marcouplanes.com/planes/index.asp

and welcome to smc where we`ll help you spend more money than you ever thought you could on tools ....tod

[Robert Trotter]

Set of Mortise chisels? Why? From my understanding, most people only end up using 1 or 2 sizes. This might be a bit excessive.

Also, you said you are going to do everything by hand. Does this include dimensioning lumber, or are you just going to buy S4S? If you are dimensioning lumber it is usually done with 3 planes (sometimes 4): jack, jointer, and smoother.

mark

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. You already have me thinking.

Ok I suppose I may have been better off posting the full version as intended.

I got a small bonus which the "boss" has allowed me to spend on some tools. So not botomless pockets. The Marcous look great and I read the review about the smoother. But alas my budget doesn't run that far. The tools list I gave has just about maxed my budget. So a bit of changing around could be done to get the best setup.

I understand the benefits of buying older planes and fettling them. Can be cheap for you guys, and I could learn a lot about planes etc. But I live in Japan and trying to find a reputable seller and then shipping them over and buying all the stuff needed to bring them up to speck it will probably cost me a tidy some for an old plane. So am looking at new.

I will be dimensioning lumber by hand. With my above selection of tools I can aford 2 planes so I thought of smoother and a LA jack. I was thinking the jack can be used as a jointer since I won't be doing a lot of really long work. And although it has taken me more time and effort, I have gotten by with shorter planes so far. But i do understand the benefits of having a number of different sized plane. Maybe some time in the future if needed, I can look at a jointer later.

I hope this might help you to help me.

[Andrew Homan]

I will be dimensioning lumber by hand. With my above selection of tools I can aford 2 planes so I thought of smoother and a LA jack. I was thinking the jack can be used as a jointer since I won't be doing a lot of really long work. And although it has taken me more time and effort, I have gotten by with shorter planes so far.

Hi,
I'll preface this by saying that I'm a beginner. I've set up my shop with a combination of new and old tools; usually I acquire only the tools that I need for whatever project I'm embarking on.
I have to say that I'm a bit surprised, since you will be dimensioning boards by hand, that you're choosing such extensive sets of chisels but no jointer plane. Over the last 6 months, I've done quite a bit of dimensioning boards by hand and I really don't know what I'd do without the jointer. I'll add that I consider dimensioning to be almost a meditative practice, it is very relaxing, but if someone told me in a dream that I was going to have to do it (on boards longer than 20") with a jack plane as the longest plane, I think that I'd wake up in a cold sweat!

Also, I just want to confirm that you already have good saws? I overlooked how important it is to have good saws and am only now really making the discovery of the joy of Western saws (a friend gave me a lesson that unlocked some mysteries).

I'd also love to own all those LN chisels, but those two sets cost around $550, whereas you could get a well tuned #7 from a dealer for under $100 and add a LN blade and chipbreaker; buy some very good but less expensive chisels, such as Ashley Iles or 2 Cherries. And I also imagine that you could get some very nice chisels in Japan. For the jointer, you really do not need to go LN (although they are beautiful jointers). I have a very old Stanley #7 (from a dealer) that I dropped a LN blade and chipbreaker into, and I've compared the performance to a friend's LN #7. I'm getting similar performance except that the LN jointer can be set so fine, it is almost like a massive smoother. I use the #7 for flattening boards and jointing edges, which I then smooth with a LN #4, so I don't need the #7 to be a smoother! (and neither does anyone, really, since you'll want to use a #4 or 4.5 afterwards anyhow!).

Another possibility is to get all those chisels (for cleaning up tenons) and forget about the 140 or 60.5R. This should also free up funds for a jointer.

As a beginner who also had to limit choices for startup tools, I felt compelled to write this, because you can always gradually acquire chisels as needed (for exactly the same cost), whereas you cannot "gradually" buy a jointer!

-Andy

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks people. And thanks Andrew for your experiences. I was hoping that experiences like your would help me and others like me who have read a lot but still unsure.

I live in Japan and have some cheaper Japanese chisels etc. But I really need to upgrade and there are so many makers around I don't know which are quality and which are not. Also they are quite expensive. And there is no try and return poilcy generally I think. Of course there are cheaper ones but I have some of them already. Just a new blade for my plane can set me back more than a whole new LN shipped to Japan. Thus my asking.
I don't see how you can buy good Japanese planes and blades in the US cheaper than here. If anyones knows a chisel maker I can get mortice chisels from in Japan let me know.

I could drop the LN chisels I suppose and just get one or two more expensive one here as I need them. And put the money to something else.

I have Japanese dozuki with very fine teeth, great for super fine cuts and the equivalent of a panel saw I suppose. I would love an Adria saw or LN but lower priority at the moment. New planes and chisels first, I think.

[Andrew Homan]

I could drop the LN chisels I suppose and just get one or two more expensive one here as I need them. And put the money to something else.

Hi Robert,
The LN mortise chisels are very nice. I have one, a 1/4", and it is a pleasure to use. I'll probably want a 3/8" or 1/2" soon for some upcoming projects (but I'm also looking at old chisels at sales here). So I certainly don't want to discourage you from getting those lovely LN chisels! I just think that since dimensioning boards is 100% in your future, the #7 (or #8) is probably a priority, whereas an assortment of 5 mortise chisels is not necessarily needed immediately. And you could probably pick out 2 of the beveled chisels as needed.
What kinds of pieces are you going to build, specifically?
Don't forget marking/measuring tools. In addition to the combination square, I find that I frequently need a small (4") square (mine is an inexpensive metal one) and a larger try square.
Good luck!
Andy

[Martin Shupe]

I have the LN socket chisels. They are wonderful to use, and the edges last a long time. I have one LN mortise chisel, because it is all I need right now. Mostly I cut mortises with a router.

I have mostly LN planes. I say mostly, because I just got a LV low angle block. The only reason I got it is because of the nifty attachment for doing edges at 45 degrees. I have not used it yet, still need to sharpen it.

I have the LN 62, with an extra toothed blade. It is a fabulous plane.

The beauty of LN's, and reputation for quality, make them the top choice for my small but growing collection. If you can afford it, I believe the LN's are worth the extra bucks. Look at ebay. Used LN's always sell for almost retail. I'll admit to the one LV plane, but it will probably be the only one in my collection of users. For the majority, I am a LN fan.

[Chris Padilla]

Robert,

Being in Japan (where abouts?), you might have the opportunity to hook with our very own Stu Ablett (in Tokyo Japan). Look him up and drop him a line...he is semi-famous around the woodworking community!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Andrew, You have me thinking that maybe I may not go for the chisel sets but just get a couple that I need right now. I was going for sets as I haven't been doing work of a consistant size. Always a lot of variety. So often have a need for different sized chisels. But have just had to work a lot harder and carefully with my 6mm (1/4") and 19mm (??). I have just made a modern styled arm chair with 40mm (about 1 3/4"?) square, legs with tapers on two side and mortice and tenonned all the frame up (about 16mm to 18mm thickness). I want to make a display table (narrow,open frame with fine rather narrow frame members) for the front entrance hall. Also some beds and desks for the kids. The eldest is just starting school. And some beds for the kids. Also I was hoping to try a few boxes and draws with dovetailed joinery (for the tools and my workshop. But my next projects will be some "Selengan batu" or "Ipe" harwood planter boxes and a bench for the balcony. And my shed/workshop. waiting on estimates for the concrete foundation.

I was thinking about the 4" sliding square from Lee Valley. About $35 ?? But all these little things keep adding up to a big price.

People - is there a reason for going LN LA over the #4 or #4 1/2 or other way round? I will be working with both hard and softwoods.

[Robert Trotter]

Soryy just an adition it helps. I will be making the doors for my shed. 3 in total. Probably from serangan batu.

[Ken Bryant]

If you're going to dimension lumber by hand, you really really need a jointer. My own personal favorite is the LN #8. If I could only have two planes, I'd probably take the jointer and a 4 1/2 smoother. Three and I'd add the smallest LN block plane. Four and I'd add a shoulder plane. Five and I'd add a low-angle jack.