Tools and Technique questions

[Robert Trotter]

I want to make a hall table sometime in the future. It looks something like this:-

hall table.jpg

The legs are tapered and rather thin. I was thinking of something like 1.5" square tapering down to be rather narrow at the base. And for the aprons I was wanting to make an open frame like apron from 3/4" or 1" square (or close to) stock. Solid timber top (jointed)

I was wanting it to be rather dark in final color so I was thinking of wenge or walnut. What are some nice timbers that finish nice and dark to black in colour. (British spelling there )

I will be doing everything by hand.



Dimensioning by hand:-

I haven't dimensioned any hardwood by hand from rough stock so your help would be greatly appreciated.

• When buying rough lumber what is a good rule for the thickness to buy compared to the final dimension? Ex 1/3 over final thickness or does the wood type itself change anything. Your wisdom please...
• For the narrow pieces I would need, should I rip close to final dimension and plane down to final thickness or will wood stresses cause a lot of twist in narrow pieces. So would it be better to rip rather thick and then plane down on all sides to reduce warping and twist? Your wisdom please...

Planing:-

I would like to have a planed finish with minimal sanding if I can.
For finish planing on the narrow members for the apron frame and for the tapered legs what planes should I use and how?

I will be getting an LA jack and LA jointer and a smoother and the LN LA adjustable mouth block plane.

The smoother will be either a LN#4, LN LA smoother, LV LA smoother or a LV BU smoother. As you can tell I am still trying to decide on a smoother but leaing toward an LA plane as being more versitile. And your help on how to go about making my hall table will probably help me to decide.


What is the best process for preparing my stock and dimensioning all of the pieces?

Thanks for any help,

Robert

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Robert,

Wenge is a pita to work with handplanes, doable, but not a nice wood to use in that regard. So my vote goes to Black Walnut. If you want it blacker, I would use a dark gel stain on it or an analine dye. Walnut is an extremely nice wood to work by hand as well.

For something like this table, I would select timber specifically to make the legs, aprons, drawers and top. I would buy nice fairly straight-grain 8/4 stock for the legs. A piece 4" wide and 36" to 48" in length.

I would also select a piece of fairly straight-grained wood for the apron in 4/4 thickness. This is because sawing the pieces up for the ladder construction will be easier and without grain-runout it will be less a distraction--aside from being easier to work with pieces that size.

And for the top I would get 5/4 stock. That way by the time it is flat, you will be able to end up with a full 1" thick.

All this minimizes processing for your design.

If you end up making drawers, I would consider Poplar or even QS Pine for the drawer[s] themselves. Using a lighter colored wood for the drawer sides/backs makes for seeing in the drawer much easier.

Take care, Mike

[Ken Bryant]

Read somebody like Anthony Guidice for the best sequence of actions. The things I have found, after slow and painful learning by mistake, are these:

(1) Watch twist like a hawk. Other bowing or cupping is easy to fix; twist is insidious. Never ignore the winding sticks stage. Fix twist before anything else.

(2) With twist, or any other wood movement, EXPECT THERE TO BE NEW MOVEMENT AFTER YOU TAKE OFF ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF WOOD. If you start with a three-inch-wide piece of 4/4 maple stock, and rip and plane it to a 3/4" thick 2" wide stile for a frame-and-panel door, by the time you've got the rails cut and are ready to fit joints, there's good odds the stiles will already have some twist (or bow, or cup): the tensions in the original piece of wood will no longer be in the same balance they were before you did the dimensioning, and everything will move to accomodate the uneven release of tension. Frustrating. Two things make it tolerable: (a) make it an iterative process -- that is, take off, oh, half what you're going to need to take off, do the same for the rails, and then come back and quickly trim all pieces to final dimension just before you cut the joints, then assemble the dratted things before they move again! Once they're assembled, the joints between the different pieces will again stabilize the situation considerably: stiles can no long get away with twisting when they're pinned down by the long grain of the rails, and vice versa.
(3) Cut and fit joints immediately after dimensioning. Don't do the dimensioning one day, cut joints on the second day, work on something else for the third, fourth, and fifth, fit the joints on the sixth, and expect to be able to rest on the seventh day. Works for God; doesn't work for me.

Dimensions: depends totally on how twisted, bowed, and cupped your stock is. The general rule, of course, is just what the standard dimensioned lumber would lead you to expect: a dimensioned 2X board is really 1.5 -- i.e., it's reasonable to expect to lose about a quarter of the thickness to dimensioning. But I bought a 16/4 maple board, 10" wide and 12' long. When laid flat on the floor, one corner stood an inch and a quarter above the floor, it was so twisted! I bought the board on the basis that I was going to use one twelve foot piece, and the best I would get out of it after straightening was 11/4 -- therefore the price came down. In fact, by finding a project that only needed three-foot lengths, with that 5/4 twist spread over twelve feet, I actually got four pieces of 15/4 stock out of it. You just have to figure out, for the board and for the project, what you'll have to take off to end up with a piece of usable shape and size.

Tools: either a scrub plane (what I use, from LN) or a cambered larger (fore) plane (what Chris Schwarz recommends) to take off the big stuff to establish a flat, untwisted side; a jack plane ( I use an LN LA) to smooth out the gouges from the fore plane; a jointer (or jack plane for shorter stock) to establish a reference edge at right angles to your first smooth face; then whatever seems most sensible (marking with a gauge, probably) to make a second parallel surface and a second parallel edge; and finally cut for length. Then take the last few thousandths off everything with a smoother (LN 4.5 for me, except for end grain, where I use either an LN LA jack or a block plane, depending on how big the board is).

Sorry. That's a long posting. Everybody will have a different sequence; this one works for me, with the tools I've got.

[Robert Trotter]

OK...I'd better ask this now. I have been guessing a lot up till now but I should find out for sure. I am a metric man. Sounds like a song, doesn't it. I'm from OZ...You know, Australia. They stopped inches and all that the year I started school.


I thought 5/4 meant 1 and 1/4 inches wide but could someone explain the size terminology you all use.

Ex.

straight-grain 8/4 stock for the legs. A piece 4" wide and 36" to 48" in length.

What does this mean? so it is 4" wide , what is the 8/4 bit?

4/4 maple stock

is what?

But I bought a 16/4 maple board, 10" wide and 12' long.

is what? It's 10" wide so what is the 16/4 mean I was thinking it was equal to 4 if my math is right but maybe it doesn't

I actually got four pieces of 15/4 stock out of it.

is What?

Anyway I think you get the idea. A simple explanation will help me to understand what ya all r tawking about.

[Mike Wenzloff]

The X/4 is the thickness, measured in 1/4" as in your example, 5/4 = 1 1/4"

So, for the 8/4 = 50.8 mm in thickness
4/4 = 25.4 mm in thickness

I'll let you do all of Ken's <g>...

Take care, Mike

[Ken Bryant]

Don't know about Australia, but here in Canada (and yeah, I think in our southern auxiliary the States), we have very different measuring systems for "rough lumber" and "dimensioned lumber". For "rough lumber", width and length of boards are given in "real" -- not fudged -- feet and inches. Thicknesses are given in "quarters" of an inch -- i.e., 8/4 lumber is two inches thick, with minor variations permissible. Dimensioned (finished) lumber is measured quite differently for thickness and width. So a "2x4", while "nominally" two inches by four inches, is "really" 1.5" by 3.5". That is, it started its post-log life as a piece of 8/4 lumber, 4" wide -- but then lost half an inch in each dimension in the process of becoming a moderately straight board.

So quarters apply ONLY to thickness, and are (more or less) accurate measurement -- but make no promises about the straightness of the board. "2X" or "4X" measures apply to both thickness and width BEFORE FINISHING, but such boards are "really" half an inch (or more) smaller in both dimensions.

[Robert Trotter]

OK... Thanks for the info. I seem to have been almost there and now I have it.

I'm an educated man now.

Do I get a Diploma?

[Derek Cohen]

I would like to have a planed finish with minimal sanding if I can.
For finish planing on the narrow members for the apron frame and for the tapered legs what planes should I use and how?

Hi Robert

I made a table similar to the one you plan to do, but in Blackbutt and Jarrah.




Blackbutt is, as you know, a @#*&!! to plane without tearout. I used it to test the flexibility of the LV BU Jointer. Go to http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/d...nter/index.asp

The advantage of the LV BUJ on the tapered legs was that I could use a high cutting angle (62 degrees) and open/close the mouth in seconds to remove stock quickly or smooth large areas.

I would lean towards the LV BU Smoother.

Hope that gives you some answers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ken Bryant]

This is to certify that Robert Trotter, Esq.

has on this 17 day of October, 2006

earned the degree Doctor of Philosophical Lumber Dimensioning

from the Oakheart Faculty College of Sawmill Creek University.

[Ken Bryant]

You guys down there may use funny numbers, but you have some BEAUTIFUL woods we almost never get to see.

[Robert Trotter]

OK good info on wood. I'll start looking around for some wood. I believe I have to buy it, bring it home, and store it to equalise / equalize the moisture content.

How long does this typically take?
I will have to get a moisture metre...More money
Are they expensive or is cheap one OK?


OK with say black walnut, the final finish strokes with the plane on the smaller apron frame members just prior to assembly should be done with what plane? The smoother? or since they are small the block plane? If smoother, would the LVBUsmoother be to much for the smaller pieces?

Would it be more for the top and maybe the legs?

So would I really be better with a smaller smoother like the LV LA smoother or the LN smoother?

AND

Connecting the top to the frame would it better using dowels or something like a mortice (floating mortice , is that the term?) or just screw through the bottom of the top rail of the apron frame into the top.

There would need to be sloted hole or mortices on one side (probably the back side) for screws or dowels etc to allow for movement in to top, is that right?

Robert

[Ken Bryant]

Assuming the wood starts out kiln-dry, it shouldn't take more than a few weeks to catch up with wherever your shop's at, humidity-wise. (Longer if thicker - 16/4 wood, for example, might take a year! :-) ) Moisture meter probably not all that important unless you're impatient, or unless you're drying your own.

Use the plane that feels like it fits right. Don't worry about a rule. If it seems too big and clumsy for the piece, get a smaller one.

[Eddie Darby]

I will be getting an LA jack and LA jointer and a smoother and the LN LA adjustable mouth block plane.

The smoother will be either a LN#4, LN LA smoother, LV LA smoother or a LV BU smoother. As you can tell I am still trying to decide on a smoother but leaing toward an LA plane as being more versitile. And your help on how to go about making my hall table will probably help me to decide.

I own the Lie-Nielsen low angle, bevel up, smoother, and the Lie-Nielsen #4 1/2 bench plane. Both great planes. I run a camber on the blade in the #4 1/2, so that the actual cut is closer to the #4 with no camber. I use the low angle smoothing plane for tough wild grained woods that require a steeper angle of attack, and for any end-grain situations, such as butchers blocks.

I have the York attachment for my #4 1/2 bench plane, but just haven't used it yet! I know, shame shame! I will someday...I hope!

Since you seem to be into the low angle mode, I would stick to this approach.

[Derek Cohen]

The smoother? or since they are small the block plane? If smoother, would the LVBUsmoother be to much for the smaller pieces?

Would it be more for the top and maybe the legs?

So would I really be better with a smaller smoother like the LV LA smoother or the LN smoother?

Robert

The size of the smoother is not really related to the size of the work. The blade width of the BUS is only 1/4" wider than the LAS.

It is a personal thing - what you feel comfortable with. I was a convert to heavy planes only recently. I still enjoy small, lighter planes. They have a greater sense of immediacy or "feel". What they lack is authority, which the BUS has (and what I expect the LN Bronze #4 1/2 to have, or the Marcou smoother has in spades!). Don't ignore the LV LAS. While it is lighter, it is more versatile (it can also be used as a fine plane for the shooting board).

You really should go out and try the BUS against the LAS. That is the only way you will satisfy your concern. For your interest, I built the above table with only a jointer and a spokeshave (for planes) as a dare to myself.

If you decide you prefer the LAS, I would consider making a new tote. In my opinion, unless you have a high bench, it will benefit from a slightly lower tote angle. Here is mine:



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Derek,

Are the legs on your table tapered on all four sides and all they tapered full length? Nice looking job!

Tony Z.