Advertising...?

[Marty Walsh]

Keith,

Some of the recent posts in the TOS Revision thread have me concerned. Instead of hijacking that thread, I thought I'd start a new one to (hopefully) get my concerns addressed.

Here's an excerpt from the TOS thread to set the context:

For the record we will not allow advertising within our Forums here at SMC as long as it is Member suppported. There will be advertising in our new ShopTours module we are planning. The SMC Shop Tours will be a major bandwidth consumer and will require serious revenue to pay for server and bandwidth support. This is a business decision that I have made since SawMill Creek and our new ShopTours Module will both function as a division of my sign company (Northwind Associates), in the same manner that SMC has been owned by Hampton Roads Online since its inception.

Without knowing the details about the new Shop Tour “module” you’re planning, I have to say that the mention of advertising has me worried about the future of the creek as we know and love it. One of the many things I’ve come to appreciate about the creek are the honest opinions, suggestions and first-hand knowledge and experiences (both good and bad) regarding various products.

I know you state that the forums of SMC will remain advertising-free, but business is business. If both the forums and this new module you’re planning will indeed both function as “A DIVISION” of your sign company, they will be inextricably linked, making the forum a target of any bill paying (or potential) advertiser that’s not happy with what they read. If you receive pressure from a paying advertiser about negative press some product of theirs is receiving in the forum, are you going to be willing (or financially able) to allow the free flow of information to continue? It wouldn’t be good business to do so…unless you have a ready replacement for the revenue provided by the advertiser receiving bad press. Even if the bad press was substantiated with irrefutable facts, any advertiser that wanted to, could pressure you to have it removed.

There are undertones of this sort of thing happening already on the creek, WITHOUT publicly known advertisers. I can only imagine how “sanitary” things will have to become if we have to be careful about what gets said about Company XYZ because they’re helping to foot the bill.

Again, without knowing anything about this new module, is there some reason you don’t divulge your plans and see if this is something that we as members could support? If it’s going to be up to the high standards we’ve all come to appreciate from the creek, I think offering us a chance to support it would be the ‘creeker’ thing to do…that is of course if you haven’t already made your business decision and have signed contracts from advertisers.

I’m not afraid to chip in on something I find worthwhile…and the creek is certainly worthwhile. Well, the creek as it stands today is worthwhile. Will it remain so when there’s advertising revenue inextricably connected to it through your business…?

I truly enjoy the valuable resource you’ve created for us Keith. And I realize all too well that it’s YOUR RESOURCE that you allow us to enjoy. I just hope its value isn’t greatly diminished by what you have planned. I’ve left my share of forums because I discovered the creek, which I believe is the best forum there is. I just hope it stays that way!!!

Hoping the creek doesn’t get polluted…
- Marty -

Stop the presses….

I was just about to post the above when I found the following quote from Aaron, our beloved overworked administrator, in the original Shop Tour thread:

Additionally, I for one am sick of ads, which is one of the reasons I enjoy running and visiting SMC so much. I wouldn't want any part of SawmillCreek, distributed or not, to be ad-filled. I don't see it as a small price.

Hmm, I wonder what happened to Aaron’s sentiment….

Oh well, what I state above still stands. I’d still like to know if the Shop Tours module is something we can help you do WITHOUT ADVERTISERS!

- Marty -

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Great points Marty, and I have to say, I really do agree with what you are saying. I've been waiting for this thread to start, not specifically this thread by Marty, but this reaction to the Advertiser sponsored Division.

I too run my own business, it is retail so we got to have a homepage, and it makes us money, but it is a business expense. The Creek is not this for you Keith, so I truly understand the necessity of having something paid for, via adverts................................but........ .......Do we really want this?

I too have no idea about the New Shop Tours module will look or feel like, nor do I understand the costs and expenses in doing so. I would ask, if it is possible to have the new Shop Tour Module (STM) paid for by the membership?

I could be way off base here Keith, and if I am, I'll apologize right away, but I must add my "Concern" as well.

In all sincerity

Stu in Tokyo

[Art Mulder]

I know you state that the forums of SMC will remain advertising-free, but business is business. If both the forums and this new module you’re planning will indeed both function as “A DIVISION” of your sign company, they will be inextricably linked, making the forum a target of any bill paying (or potential) advertiser that’s not happy with what they read. If you receive pressure from a paying advertiser about negative press some product of theirs is receiving in the forum, are you going to be willing (or financially able) to allow the free flow of information to continue? It wouldn’t be good business to do so…unless you have a ready replacement for the revenue provided by the advertiser receiving bad press. Even if the bad press was substantiated with irrefutable facts, any advertiser that wanted to, could pressure you to have it removed.

Disclaimer - I haven't been following the TOS thread.

Just stepping back for a bit, to try and look at the big picture... Seems to me that at some point we're just going to have to trust Keith.

As I see it, some one individual is always going to own the forum. This holds true for probably all of the non-company-owned (or non-magazine-owned) forums out there. How many groups are really going to go through the effort of setting up a formal non-profit organization just to run a forum? So I expect SMC, and other forums that I might like, are always ultimately going to be owned by one person.

So really, do we have any choice than to come back to trust of that person?

I have a friend who is a part-owner of a web hosting company. And I know from him that bandwidth has a definite cost. SMC is already a very picture-intensive place, and I remain amazed at how much bandwidth Keith is able to get out of his provider.

just my disorganized comments.

[Keith Outten]

Since we started SawMill Creek Woodworkers Forums it has always been our plan to keep it advertising free. The basis for this decision is that we all felt that there should be at least one place on the Net for woodworkers to share information and ideas that was free from outside influence and trashy billboard advertising.

Most will remember that last October I was in the final stages of closing Hampton Roads Online and had announced that SMC would be either going offline or would be sold in less than one week when John Bailey stepped up and spearheaded a fund drive to save The Creek. The response from our Members was overwhelming...what could I do but find a way to continue on somehow.

Jackie and I started making phone calls and found that we could obtain a commercial cable connection for my workshop and we could continue to run The Creek with donations from our Members. It is a balancing act in that we are donations supported and rely on our fund drive to survive but I expect we will be able to keep SMC going for many years just as it is...but.

Most might not understand how big SMC is and the extent of the resources it takes to keep us online. When you consider a site that gets up to 21 million hits per month and has the data transfer we have SMC is a real big truck. Consider that we are growing in Members every week and I expect the total Membership to reach 10,000 by the end of this year. I know that the 10,000 figure isn't scientific but it represents the number who have registered, add to it the huge load our Guests place on our network resources and it is amazing that we are able to keep things going without even considering subscriptions or advertising but we have.

If just one out of four of our Members would donate the suggested six dollars per year we would be absolutely wealthy but the ratio isn't anywhere near that figure. Honestly we have done well and have been paying our bills ahead of time...we normally pay our bandwidth bill for the entire year upfront. Many of our Members have donated 100 to 350 dollars each and even though the number of donors is lees than we would like the large donations made have provided the necessary funds to keep us comfortable.

From my point of view I have to sign the annual contracts and make the commitment to keep The Creek up and running as best I can and I take this responsibility seriously even though I don't benefit financially from our Forums. I also have to shoulder legal risks if someone breaks the law and posts something illegal, this is another reason why our TOS contains some of the things that cause a few of our Members heartburn.

Rather than SawMill Creek continuing on as it is forever I prefer to expand way beyond the traditional woodworkers forums. Not just the Forums but more services for woodworkers like a killer shop tours module, bulk buys and monsterous FreeStuff drawings. Who knows what we could do beyond that, the sky is the limit. The cost of developing custom software and hosting major new services is not cheap and good business practices dictate that we have a plan to continue what we start. Given what I have learned from SMC I know that the necessary revenue would be difficult to generate from donations...not impossible but difficult. The problem of making long term commitments based on donations would also be of some concern. Should the new Shop Tours site become very popular it could generate the necessary revenue to guarentee our continued existance and fund other expansion projects.

I see no reason why our Forums, as long as they remain a separate entity, would be affected by advertising on another site even though they are linked via a business connection. Aaron and I are both steadfast in keeping our Woodworking Forums advertising free at all cost. We also must be practical, money makes the world go round and free won't pay the bills.

The reason it seems to be taking so long for us to get a Shop Tours site up and running is that I have no interest in hosting a site like those that already exist. The next step for us is to have a business plan that will provide the necessary professional talent to make things happen. After serious consideration Aaron and I can't see any other maens of accomplishing our goals without traditional advertising funds.

Possibly one of our Members may know of another innovative way we can generate the necessary funds to expand into new areas.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Thanks for the detailed response Keith.

Art, just so you know, this is not a matter of trust, as I do trust Keith, but more a matter of asking if there is/was a way this could be done without taking the advert route, and all the various business and contractual necessities.

Cheers!

[Keith Outten]

I have a personal philosophy in that I prefer to judge people by what they do, not by what they say. Words are so cheap and promises are easilly broken.

Since we started SMC I have remained true to my word keepng the Creek going through good times and bad. The deed far outweighs the promise and I think most of our Members trust me based on what I have done.

I have a bad habit of looking beyond the present and I worry constantly about how we will be able to keep SMC going though the years ahead. Should SMC develope a new entity that is a profitable venture it would assure that we would be here for the next generation of woodworkers and beyond. We have had offers from several companies to purchase SawMill Creek. Only a couple of the candidates are companies that I would consider their offers because they would be able to afford to keep SMC as it is, without advertising. Even though I have assumed tens of thousands of dollars in debt to acquire SMC from Hampton Roads Online I would pull the plug before I would sell our Forums to a company who would destroy what we have built. SMC has never been about making money. Should I have to make a decision that would cost us an advertiser I will do what is appropriate for SMC and my decision won't be based on money...I"m already poor so I don't have to worry about losing my fortune

If SMC was in fact a business venture I would have sold it last October, the offer we received was substantial, it would have removed the debt I incured acquiring SMC plus a nice nest egg for my retirement years. Everything is for sale at the right price but SawMill Creek is very precious to me and a few thousand of my friends.

Basically I am blue-collar, not a wealthy man by any means so I can't provide for SMC from my personal income. My sign business is still in its infancy, possibly in the future it will be able to sponsor SMC but we all know that business isn't a sure thing, especially at my age

[Steve Clardy]

My thoughts.

I could see this coming.

It may be seperately run, but will still be part of SMC.

One way or another, SMC will not be advertisement free, if this comes about.

I'd rather do without the shop tours if this is what it takes to make it happen.

[Keith Outten]

Well it seems I have lost Steve's trust, and he doesn't believe we can keep our Forums free from advertising even though we have already done so for over three years.

[Steve Clardy]

Well it seems I have lost Steve's trust, and he doesn't believe we can keep our Forums free from advertising even though we have already done so for over three years.

It can be kept free from advertisment, through member donations.
Why did we all donate? We donated to keep it up and running, like it has been, without advertising.

If you need more money to run SMC, just ask.

I just feel, have felt, for a long time, that some way or another, it would be turned into a profit venture.

[Keith Outten]

Steve,

Let me give you another tid-bit of information to consider;

Two of our Members who run other forums have recommended that we use Google ads at SMC. Two of the largest woodworkers forums are running Google ads and generate way over $20,000.00 per year just from the ads, yet you don't see Google ads here at SMC. All I have to do is fill out a simple form and it's done, even easier than asking people for money.

Our Forums are Member supported, that is the key to keeping them free from advertising. People care enough to donate and provide for themselves a place where they can be a Member of a community. Since last October we have been Member supported and The Creek will remain so as long as our Members choose to keep it this way.

I certainly have the right to create a new site for shop tours. I guess I could take the easy road and just register another domain name but the loss in brand recognition would be a detriment to our Forums in the long run. Using the SMC name would be beneficial to me in the short run but wouldn't be a major factor overall for the Shop Tours Site. The loss to our Forums would grow as the years pass if not connected to a site that became a major entity that had clout with manufacturers.

.

[Lars Thomas]

I certainly don't see the addition of ads (particularly Google-style) either here or at Shop Tours invasive at all. I visit Hand Plan Central occasionally and their Goggle ads are actually helpful.

[Marty Walsh]

Keith,

Thanks for your candid and prompt reply.

Before I go any further, let me say that it's NOT A MATTER OF TRUST. It's a matter of business, and the potential (negative) influence direct financial backing can impart on the forums

...

I see no reason why our Forums, as long as they remain a separate entity, would be affected by advertising on another site even though they are linked via a business connection. Aaron and I are both steadfast in keeping our Woodworking Forums advertising free at all cost. We also must be practical, money makes the world go round and free won't pay the bills.

...

There are two totally sperate and distinct things mentioned in the above abstract. It's one thing to keep the actual advertisements off the the actual forum screens. It's another altogether to keep the forums unaffected by the potential influence of the advertisers.

As you say, money does make the world go round. I'm not always happy with the direction certain sources of funding get things spnning, but there's little I personally can do.

Possibly one of our Members may know of another innovative way we can generate the necessary funds to expand into new areas.

I'll ask again, is this not something WE members could support? I totally understand the hit-n-miss nature of funding based on donations. But without concrete numbers to use for estimation purposes, I can't tell you this is something that requires outside funding. Number of registered members, and number of hits...along with saying it's a "real big truck"...make it hard to say that a subscription model, if not just donations, would be more than sufficient to keep the creek pollution free.

Thanks again for allowing this free exchange...
- Marty -

[Art Mulder]

...Two of the largest woodworkers forums are running Google ads and generate way over $20,000.00 per year just from the ads,

$20K from Google ads?

I have this sudden urge to try and start a WW'ing forum as a part time job.

But then I'd have to compete with SMC, so nix that. Not to mention how much the bandwidth charges would eat into that money...

Sigh. Darn reality invading my daydreams like that.

[Keith Outten]

Marty,

It is good that you asked the question, sometimes it reminds us to consider whether we have looked at any given position fairly and considered every option with the proper care. I need to be "thumped" occasioanlly, it keeps me on my toes and makes me revisit decisions once again.

My answer to your question isn't concrete as I have no numbers at this point to share. My feeling is based on experience gained from running HRO for ten years and what we have learned by hosting SMC. SMC is self supporting now so there isn't much to discuss concerning our Forums financial status or even advertising influence. We have no plans to fine tune SMC, it is already running as smooth as can be.

The new venture that Aaron and I are considering doesn't have to be associated with SMC at all. These new services being a for-profit business venture are planned to be supported via advertising. Therefore it isn't a matter of asking our Forum Members to provide financial support for the Shop Tours but rather whether they prefer to be associated via the domain name.

A separation might be in the best interest of all parties but I have this nagging feeling that our Forms would see a huge benefit being associated with what Aaron and I have in mind. Obviously a Shop Tours site would go hand in hand with a woodworking forum, the physical connection between the two could be huge in terms of clout and presence on the World Wide Web.

SawMill Creek is already the second largest woodworking forum on the global Internet and clearly doesn't need assistance from any other source to continue on as it is now and to grow on its own. We are growing at an amazing rate and there isn't any end in sight so all is well at SMC.

I hope that Aaron will jump into the conversation soon and share his views and perspective.

.

[Steve Clardy]

Steve,

Let me give you another tid-bit of information to consider;

Two of our Members who run other forums have recommended that we use Google ads at SMC. Two of the largest woodworkers forums are running Google ads and generate way over $20,000.00 per year just from the ads, yet you don't see Google ads here at SMC. All I have to do is fill out a simple form and it's done, even easier than asking people for money.

Our Forums are Member supported, that is the key to keeping them free from advertising. People care enough to donate and provide for themselves a place where they can be a Member of a community. Since last October we have been Member supported and The Creek will remain so as long as our Members choose to keep it this way.

I certainly have the right to create a new site for shop tours. I guess I could take the easy road and just register another domain name but the loss in brand recognition would be a detriment to our Forums in the long run. Using the SMC name would be beneficial to me in the short run but wouldn't be a major factor overall for the Shop Tours Site. The loss to our Forums would grow as the years pass if not connected to a site that became a major entity that had clout with manufacturers.

.

Yes. I totally agree on your rights to create, do whatever you need to do, want to do. This your your place. No disagreement from me

But. If you tied in say, SMC SHOPTOURS, wouldn't it still be part of SMC? If it was tied in?
Now if you started another complete domain such as SMCshoptours.org, it would be different. But it is still one way or another tied together. Same owner. Both sites criss cross.

Like [before the dewalt buyout]
Pentair owns Delta, Porter Cable.
Two seperate companies, but 1 pulling the big string for both.

I'll get back here later. It sure is hard trying to type out thoughts, suggestions. Much easier to talk it out.