OK..help me out here on sharpening....

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks guys....I'm still at work doing my day job right now and will digest all this later tonight.

Jeff....my exaggeration of 1 hour is very realistic. I've spent up to 5 hours just flattening and sharpening a single chisel. It's probably more me than anything else. I need to figure out a process of sharpening and how to best get that edge with a LOT less effort.
I have the LV Veritas honing jig and such as that. I also have 3 Japanese waterstones that I've used over time, but not much because with only 4 hours in the shop at night, how can I justify spending 2 hours sharpening a couple of irons.?? when I really need to be "making" something.

I have two grinders....1 highspeed grinder, 8" and one slow speed grinder, also and 8". I also have my Tormek, a diamond 320 grit, various sandpapers, and my Japanese waterstone. I tried using sandpaper once.....once.....and I used over 50 sheets of sandpaper trying to flatten and sharpen a single 3/4" chisel. Needless to say....I don't use sandpaper for sharpening.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Dennis,

Find someone that sucessfully uses the method that you like the most and go and watch them go from a new tool that needs the back flattened to sharp and also just touching up one of their tools.

There are a few tricks to each method and I think it is best to pick one method and stick with it. Once you get the hang of it it becomes second nature.

It took me until I was 18 to be able to sharpen knives like my Father. That is at least 5 or 6 good years of frustration. Now I can sit or stand and have a conversation while putting a razor edge on a knife. (a $5 aluminum oxide double sided dry stone.)

It took me a few weeks of serious playing to get a grip on the plane irons. It will come.

If you cannot go work with some one I really liked Leonard Lee's book on sharpening.

Also you don't have to do it all at once, especially for getting the backs to the perfect mirror finish! (Which I thought for a long time I would never get and was a cruel cruel joke.)

Get the edge usable and with each subsequent sharpening the polish will get better and better until your chisels will too have that TV chisel shot where the back shines like a mirror.

[Gary Herrmann]

I tried using sandpaper once.....once.....and I used over 50 sheets of sandpaper trying to flatten and sharpen a single 3/4" chisel. Needless to say....I don't use sandpaper for sharpening.

Dennis, I'm no expert, but I would wonder what grit you're starting with?

I use the sandpaper method, and I've gotten a set of 6 Marples flattened and honed in about 60-90 minutes I think. I wasn't timing myself and this was my first use of the LV honing jig. I went up to 2000 grit - I started with 220. The backs were mirror finished and I could shave arm hairs with the edges.

I've used my planes on cherry and oak for a couple projects and just noticed tonight that the edge on my smoother seemed to be less sharp. I'll have to experiment on which grit to start with to resharpen.

Like I said, I'm no expert. Use what you feel comfortable with. I'm sure the smart folks here will be able to point you toward a good solution.

[Ben Hobbs]

I have been sharpening chisels and plane irons for about 25 yr. using a 6 X 48 belt sander with 220 grit and buffing the wire edge off with a cloth wheel with buffing rouge. It has certainly served me well. It usually takes less than 60 seconds to sharpen a chisel or plane iron. I do lathe chisels and scraper blades the same way. Ben

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks guys....I still haven't had time to digest all this yet. It was a LOOOONG night at work last night and now it's back to work today.

Sandpaper? What I started with? 150 grit
and after the 50th sheet of sandpaper? Probably in the 400 grit range, I threw my hands up and quit.

Now please listen to me.....
I'm not making any of this up. I'm being as open and honest with you and sharing my experiences as openly as possible. I just have to believe that I'm not the only person on SMC that has this many frustrations with sharpening. I know that I've spent at least $2K on sharpening stuff, jigs, supplies and such. The one that made the biggest difference for me? My Tormek. It's because of the sharp tools that I've gotten off my Tormek that has allowed me to enjoy working with hand tools and such because of a nice cutting edge.

Maybe I'm trying way too many sharpening methods / processes. Maybe I'll never be a Jeff Farris, Tod Evans, Gary Herman, Steven Wilson, Steve Clardy, or even a Dave Anderson.....I just want to learn how to sharpen an edge without it taking me all night in the shop, without all the frustration, and without having to spend another $1K on items, jigs, setups and supplies.

I'm very sure that it's an education that I'm missing on sharpening, but reading all the stuff on the internet only frustrates and confuses me even more because it's always, I use Japanese waterstones...well, those suck you can only get a nice edge with Shapton stone....well, those are too expensive, you can get just as good of an edge with a 220 belt sander and a buffing wheel.....well, that doesn't work for tool-x and will require a use of the DMT Diamond stones, granite plate, leather strop and rouge...........and the list goes on almost forever.

Maybe I shouldn't have even started this thread because I'm frustrated with not getting the sharp tools that I've "read" I should have and just be satisfied with what I can get and learn from that. But I just couldn't stop and not say anything. I can't be the lone woodworker on this subject. Right?

[tod evans]

dennis,you`re really close to getting this whole sharpening thing figured out! stop throwing money at it and stop looking at sharpening as some sort of voodoo or mathematical equation you can`t figure out.....it`s all feel.......it really doesn`t matter what "system" you use untill you get the feel it`s going to be a bugger! kinda like riding a bike you can read about it for hours, buy the most expensive training wheels with gyroscopic levelers and affix a gps system to the handlebars but untill you get the feel for it it`ll fustrate you to no end......you can learn to "ride" on a western-auto single speed or on a lightspeed racing bike it doesn`t matter.......get the point? keep skinning your knees you`ll be rollin` before you know it then there`s no lookin` back.. .....02 tod

[Len Reiss]

Dennis
In your first post you mentioned that a razor sharp plane blade is becoming dull almost immediately. The first question I asked myself was what was the history of the blade itself. Was it brand new when you got it or did it come to you second or third hand? I was thinking that at sometime in the lifespan of that blade, someone used a high speed grinder and burned the living s&%@ out of it. If the temper is gone, it will not hold an edge. So far I have been lucky with old planes. With the exception of the Lie-Nielson, they all came from the local antique mall. All of them seem to have good steel. Aside from that question, I have nothing else to add, as you are already getting the best advice possible. Just remember that all of us went through some difficult days when it came to sharpening.

Len

[Mike Armstrong]

I'm jumping in here late, I used to feel the same frustration as Dennis. I have to agree with Tod that's it's more about the process. Like many of us, you've fallen bigtime for the marketing pitches. Gotta have this [insert product name . . . special particular stone/jig/system, etc.] to do it right. But it's just about bringing two flat surfaces together to make a cutting edge.

For about 5 yrs., I've been taking classes at Palomar College's Cabinet and Furniture Technology in the San Diego area. [Is it a no-no to post a URL? then Google the name] With both students and instructors, I've talked about and tried every conceivable sharpening method in existence. I've watched some visiting Japanese craftsmen work up an edge on their expensive waterstones, then plane off a 4- or 5-ft. shaving that's only a few microns thick. OTOH, my carving instructor uses an old piece of ceramic tile he found somewhere for most of his sharpening. And he's cranked out a ton of exquisite work.

Now that you probably own one of everything , you need to settle on a very limited number of abrasives and jigs and work on perfecting the process to get an acceptably sharp edge to your satisfaction in the quickest time posible to be able to do the work you want to do.

Just as an example, some comments on the scary sharp system, since you mentioned it. I'm not suggesting it, it's not for everybody. I just like it and use it a lot. Based on your time spent and sheets of paper used - 5 hrs/50 sheets!!! - I'd offer these observations. Taking 5 hrs. makes me think you're working too hard by using too fine a grit. Same would apply if you were using stones. (I remember the "80 rule" for sanding wood from one of my first classes, using 80 grit to do 80% of the work. Yeah, you can get the machine tool marks out of wood with 220, but it'll take forever.) I might start first-time flattening/sharpening a chisel at something courser than 150. I've started a couple plane irons on course emery cloth. Then work systematically through the grits to a point where you want to stop. For me, it's usually about 1200, 1500, rarely 2000. And the back really only has to be flat just behind the edge, 1/8" or less. But wanna get a mirror finish on the whole back? I don't, but you can certainly do it on your tools. I think the average time for a first time job on a chisel would be about 20 min max. I use a Veritas honing guide, but used one of those old $10 gray ones for years. To touch the edge up later, I'd drop back to about 400 or so and work up through the grits again. This should take less than 5 min.

I didn't fall into this process, but suffered through years of frustration, too. So use scary sharp, arkansas stones, japanese stones, diamond plates, Tormek, whatever, it'll happen with experience, not just with something you buy.

[Keith Hooks]

I can relate to your frustration, for sure. It took me a while before I settled into a sharpening system that I was happy with. Along the way, I learned a few things:

1) Make sure your reference surface is flat - meaning your stones are flat or your sandpaper substrate is flat. It turns out that my waterstones didn't stay flat as long as I thought they did.

2) Don't stay at one grit once you have a consistant surface finish. In other words, make sure the scratches all look the same before moving on to the next but once they are, move on. Any more time spent at that grit is wasted effort. It was hard at first for me to know what to look for.

3) Make SURE your stones are clean and your tools are clean before proceeding to the next stage. If you're not careful, you'll carry grit from one stage along to the next. Then you'll notice these larger than normal scratched on the tool surface caused by these bigger grains that you brought along with you from the previous stone/paper. It makes it impossible for me to judge when I'm ready to proceed if there are other scratched in the surface.

4) Manage the burr. This is something I still struggle with. I know that burr is there, and it makes the tool feel sharp, but that's the first thing to go once I start cutting. I know I need to get rid of it, but I still haven't worked out a consistant (the KEY to sharpening) process for doing so.

Sharpening used to seem like magic, but things slowly came together. I'm still no expert, but it's a lot less painful and frustrating than it used to be. The first step is to get consistant results (process in control). Once you can achieve that, then you can start to tweak the process to hit your desired target.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Maybe I'm trying way too many sharpening methods / processes. Maybe I'll never be a Jeff Farris, Tod Evans, Gary Herman, Steven Wilson, Steve Clardy, or even a Dave Anderson.....I just want to learn how to sharpen an edge without it taking me all night in the shop, without all the frustration, and without having to spend another $1K on items, jigs, setups and supplies.

I'm very sure that it's an education that I'm missing on sharpening, but reading all the stuff on the internet only frustrates and confuses me even more because it's always, I use Japanese waterstones...well, those suck you can only get a nice edge with Shapton stone....well, those are too expensive, you can get just as good of an edge with a 220 belt sander and a buffing wheel.....well, that doesn't work for tool-x and will require a use of the DMT Diamond stones, granite plate, leather strop and rouge...........and the list goes on almost forever...

Dennis,

As others have said, stop throwing money at this. I would add, stop reading about sharpening.

You have sandpaper. You have waterstones. You have a Tormek. I have no idea what else you have.

Pick one of the above and use it. Oh, perhaps use the Tormek for rough shaping. But only use the paper or stones for edge refinement.

Also, if a Creeker is near you who can watch you and give some pointers, get a bit of y'alls beverage of choice and spend a pleasurable afternoon with the equipment you currently own.

Don't use their stuff. Have them help you with your own sharpening gear. Sharpening, even learning sharpening, should not be stressful. Having a helping hand may well make it more pleasurable.

Take care, Mike

[Hans Braul]

The Fine Woodworking site has a good video showing Andy Rae sharpening a plane iron using Japanese water stones without any kind of honing guide.. I found it really informative and quite simple. I tried it his way and it worked, but have since gone to the LV Mk II honing guide for better consistency. I think it helps to watch an expert actually perform the task to get a feel for what he's talking about. THe FWW site isn't free, but I've found it's well worth the $$ just for all the archived articles, plans, videos, etc.

Cheers
Hans

[Gary Herrmann]

Dennis, Mike gives good advice. Pick one method you like or have a good feel for and stick with it. You've got a good eye and hands - it shows in the work you do. Maybe you just need a little time to get a feel for it.

Oh, and thanks for making me an "a" in your previous post. No one's referred to me that way since I stopped playing ball.

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis, Mike gives good advice. Pick one method you like or have a good feel for and stick with it. You've got a good eye and hands - it shows in the work you do. Maybe you just need a little time to get a feel for it.

Oh, and thanks for making me an "a" in your previous post. No one's referred to me that way since I stopped playing ball.

Thanks Gary.....But....shoot-far....I even misspelled your last name. Sorry buddy!!!!! But you are STILL an "a" in my book.

[Robert Trotter]

Dennis,

First I should say that I have up until now sharpened my tools by hand on a regular Japanese water stone. I am not great at it it but have been improving. It use to be the finest grit size being about 1000 or 2000. (can't remember now and the markings are all gone now) I had a good enough edge that I was happy for what I was doing at that time. (Japanese irons) Then I read a lot and got some finer grit stone now 6000 being the finest. Getting a better a edge now but sometimes it seemed not to be as good an edge as when I used the courser grit stone. A bit frustrating. I got the suggested sharpening book by Leonard Lee and that opened up my eyes to a lot.

Some things I picked up which may be good to think about.

• Has the blade likely been overheated and the temper drawn out? (already mentioned ) Maybe chuck it or try to grind back into good steel again - slowly.
• (already mentioned )Maybe you need to increase (adjust slightly) the angle of the bevel for your iron. For better edge retention A bigger angle between the bevel and the back could give better edge retention. Maybe try a few degree difference and see if it changes anything. But try to keep this angle to a minimum for what wood youa re working on.
• Maybe you have a micro backbevel (Don't know what to call it really ) from natural wear on the back which could be effecting cutting and sharpening.
• You don't have to do heaps and heaps of strokes. Just as many as you need to as suggested above. Until the scratches are all the same. (I found I had been over-working my blades a bit...Just wasting time and steel/rion)
• be consistant with your pressure when sharpening. I made up a jig for sharpening with the Scarey sharp method to give it a go. One problem I found with my technique after lots of thinking about it was that I was applying just a little bit different pressure through my strokes which ended up just ever so slightly curving the bevel and so I wasn't getting the best edge.

I agree ...

if a Creeker is near you who can watch you and give some pointers, get a bit of y'alls beverage of choice and spend a pleasurable afternoon with the equipment you currently own

One Suggestion (Take it waith a grain of salt)

But if you are like me and this is not an option...

I don't have a lot of experience with the Tormac. Actually never really seen one. But from what I have read some people are quite happy with the edge straight off that. I am uncertain of the equivalent fineness of stone it is. It seems that you are reasonably happy with the edge from it as well.(is this right?)

Maybe some others could comment here ....But after the Tormac just use one of the methods you seem to have had the best experience (stone or Scarely sharp - probably the stones from what you have said) with the veritas jig and just work on a microbevel. It may only need a half dozen strokes on just a couple of the finer grits. (comments by others here please) Work on consistant light pressure all the way through your strokes. Too much pressure for me means lack of control. The jig is a guide only, you apply the pressure still.

Why not just try only one grit finer than the Tormec and see if that is an improvement for you. (someone might be able to suggest somehting) Stay there for a while, then later on add another finer grit and stay there for a while.
(As already mentioned) Only when the blade is not cutting well enough for you to do the job at hand do you need to touch it up. Just touch up the micro-bevel with a few strokes on that last grit and back to work. And as mentioned earlier by someone try to to do this touch up when you first notice when the drop in performance is almost uacceptable to you (i.e just before) and then only touch up should be neccessary.

Basically I had been staying with one grit imporvement over the last for a while and then after I was confortable I added another level. It seems to have worked OK for me.

My 2 cents worth.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Ah, Robert, that's worth more than 2 pennies.

Adding a single stone [insert paper or one of your wife's Chia plates <g>] past the Tormek might be all that's needed.

But the retention, the edge failure is most likely a separate issue, Dennis. So if it keeps failing what you think is prematurely, chuck it and get a new replacement blade.

fwiw, I think the Tormek when graded fine is about 1k grit.

Take care, Mike