Need some help with decisions.. for a complete novice

[John Libertate]

And when I say complete, I really mean complete novice.

Hello all. I will make this a bit longer, sort of an intro...

I am the sort of person who will insist on doing something once, then realizing how bad I am at it, and hire a professional for the next time. It does give me the chance to understand and appreciate the work going into things, or when I am being bamboozled. (also creates a lot of wasted stuff, and nasty cuts and bruises! )

I was always impressed by soft wood rocking chairs, beautiful wood tables. I think I would enjoy wood work. So I have a project to see how well I do.

I just emptied out my kitchen (90" x 140") in my town house, a repo/burnt out place. Right now, I am working on replacing the subfloor and re-routing the water pipes. (I learned with an other wall that I will not do the drywall in the kitchen.)

After the new subfloor, I need to frame the place, drywall, floor (tile or hardwood), then cabinets.

I have two options - I can go to the local big block hardware store and pick up the flat packs/pre-made cabinets (unless I can find them cheaper online?), or make the cabinets myself.

I have several questions, and after reading a lot of posts here I am confident there are people here who would be knowledgable to answer them. I would very much apreciate your help.

Should I finish the floors all the way to the walls (complete), or leave space for the floor cabinets? The place is small, so there is no major cost difference in size.

What tools must I have to make cabinets? I have a very limited set of tools - circular saw, couple of electric hand held drills/driver, a dremmel, and few odds and ends stuff.

Frameless or frame is easier? I am leaning toward framed because it makes sense to me in strength. The frame also seem to be a bit more forgiving of imperfect size/cutting.

Laminated particle board, or plywood? I have seen particle board fall apart when wet, but plywood seems to be more expensive, and will require finishing (stain or similar).

Buy doors/drawers online, or make them myself? I understand that the doors are the "face" of the cabinets, and cannot be haphazard. But the cost seems prohibitive.

I don't need to do this project fast, I just need to do it very cost effective. Even if it takes me a cabinet a weekend, I have time.

Thank you for all your help.

[David Rose]

John,

How much would you "like" to do? What can you spend on tools? The circular saw and drills will be useful. But you will either need a saw guide or a table saw, using normal methods. I get by fine with a bandsaw (and a circular saw with guide) and many other tools. Do you have a time limit? How much space do you have to set up a shop?

You can save money, if you don't put much/any value on your time. When our house was built, the contractor had solid wood (faced) cabinets put in. The cabinet maker used lots of staples and brads. He did a full set of cabinets that would have taken me months to build using more traditional methods of dovetails and such. I am satisfied with them, but know that I could have done better. I have no regrets, though next time I would do them myself. But... I have a few years of woodworking under my belt since then.

The linoleum on my kitchen runs to the walls. The carpet runs into the closets. So I guess what my builder did was "finish to the walls".

Reading and rereading your post, I suspect that you would be ahead to buy the cabinets. I suspect that you will spend as much or more on tools and materials to do the one job. You will need a major saw of some sort and maybe a router table with large router. You could get by with what you have plus a few hundred dollars more, but you will have to build some of your tools to do that, IMO (like a router table/cabinet). You will want those if this continues as a hobby anyway, but I don't see much/any cost savings.

Expect to do a LOT of finishing! Everything that is exposed needs finish. In the kitchen that means several coats for durability. And that means lots of sanding. Do you have an eye for detail, and do you mind some drudgery?

I would expect this project to take a few months. Others more experienced will probably say less. But I sense that you have less experience than I do, so...

I wouldn't try it for cost savings. But woodworking to me is not a cost saving thing. I do it because I love it whatever the cost. Most of what I build, furniture type stuff, could be bought in plastic or particle board for way less than my time costs.

The bottom line is up to you. Try a bath cabinet or something small. You might like it.

David

And when I say complete, I really mean complete novice.

Hello all. I will make this a bit longer, sort of an intro...

I am the sort of person who will insist on doing something once, then realizing how bad I am at it, and hire a professional for the next time. It does give me the chance to understand and appreciate the work going into things, or when I am being bamboozled. (also creates a lot of wasted stuff, and nasty cuts and bruises! )

I was always impressed by soft wood rocking chairs, beautiful wood tables. I think I would enjoy wood work. So I have a project to see how well I do.

I just emptied out my kitchen (90" x 140") in my town house, a repo/burnt out place. Right now, I am working on replacing the subfloor and re-routing the water pipes. (I learned with an other wall that I will not do the drywall in the kitchen.)

After the new subfloor, I need to frame the place, drywall, floor (tile or hardwood), then cabinets.

I have two options - I can go to the local big block hardware store and pick up the flat packs/pre-made cabinets (unless I can find them cheaper online?), or make the cabinets myself.

I have several questions, and after reading a lot of posts here I am confident there are people here who would be knowledgable to answer them. I would very much apreciate your help.

Should I finish the floors all the way to the walls (complete), or leave space for the floor cabinets? The place is small, so there is no major cost difference in size.

What tools must I have to make cabinets? I have a very limited set of tools - circular saw, couple of electric hand held drills/driver, a dremmel, and few odds and ends stuff.

Frameless or frame is easier? I am leaning toward framed because it makes sense to me in strength. The frame also seem to be a bit more forgiving of imperfect size/cutting.

Laminated particle board, or plywood? I have seen particle board fall apart when wet, but plywood seems to be more expensive, and will require finishing (stain or similar).

Buy doors/drawers online, or make them myself? I understand that the doors are the "face" of the cabinets, and cannot be haphazard. But the cost seems prohibitive.

I don't need to do this project fast, I just need to do it very cost effective. Even if it takes me a cabinet a weekend, I have time.

Thank you for all your help.

[Charlie Plesums]

First, welcome to the creek.

Learning woodworking by starting with a kitchen is like seeing if you like meat by tasting an elephant. It is a big project. I built the cabinets for two of the five kitchens I have redone, and now that I have more woodworking experience and better tools, I would do it again to get the far better quality than you get when buying cabinets from the borg. But after building the cabinets for kitchens 2 and 3 I was too burned out to do the cabinets for kitchens 4 and 5. Kitchen 3 had 22 cabinets, and took most of a year (with my job and other activites).

I like David's suggestion that you start with a bathroom. They typically take one or two cabinets rather than 15 to 25, and may help you understand whether you want to take that first bite of the elephant. I have done 7 bathrooms (or was it 8?)

I prefer European style cabinets, made from plywood, so I don't have to sacrifice the couple inches of opening to the face frames. Not everyone would agree with me.

You will need a precision saw. The old masters could do a precise cut by hand, but I don't want to practice as much as they did to become good. I would recommend at least a good contractor table saw ($400-800) or a guide saw (such as Festool) for the large pieces, and if you use the guided saw, a Miter saw for the small pieces and angles. Practically everything else is optional, but if you want to finish in this lifetime, you will need at least some options... (but not everyone will agree which options are important to allow you to finish before you burn out).

Keep us posted on your choices and progress... and good luck

[John Libertate]

Thank you!

Expect to do a LOT of finishing!

This is a major deterrent for me. That is why I was looking at laminate, but it takes away from the nice wood...

Learning woodworking by starting with a kitchen is like seeing if you like meat by tasting an elephant.

Wow... I guess maybe I should start with a bathroom cabinet as was mentioned in the first response.

It "seems" so simple. I reviewed dozens of plans in books, and they all seem simple. I looked at the store cabinets, and they look... chinsy and rickety. 1/2" particle board with staples...

I prefer European style cabinets, made from plywood, so I don't have to sacrifice the couple inches of opening to the face frames.

If I decide to do it, I think I will be making European box(es), from 3/4" ply, with 3/4" x 3/4" wood front face frame. That way I have the strong front, yet not loose to the space. It will hopefully also help with finishing. I plan to paint the carcass white with thick glossy paint, and then screw/glue on the face frame.

I also noticed that most of the store boxes "feet" or that 4" below the door, (inset 3"), is part of the left & right stiles or walls. In most books it shows up as an additional "box" of sort, on which the carcass rests. In some cases metal feet, then just "kick board" all around. What is better, "standard"?

My short list of equipment would be

• table saw,
• router & table,
• claps of various kinds,
• drill bits of various types
• stapler
• and a large table to work on.

I think that is it. Hmmm... Is there such a thing as sending a drawing to a place and they send me back the pieces parts cut, drilled,labeled exactly?

[Bob Reda]

John,

There are places that do that. They are usually a cnc router shop and cut out parts for cabinets. You can also look at making the carcassas and haveing the doors and drawers made. These are what take up most of the machinery. There are a few people that do that. It might not save you money doing it this way, but it would allow you to learn the basics on making a box and having a really nice kitchen in the end.

Bob

[Dave Richards]

Welcome to the Creek.

You might do a bit of hunting in your area. You might find a woodworker who already has the tools and experience who would help you out. He might let you work in the shop with him. You'd get some experience without having a huge tool outlay up front. This would give some ideas as to how much you like woodworking and also a better sense of what tools you need.

Seems like most woodworkers spend a lot of time agonizing over which tablesaw, router, etc to buy. Working with another woodworker would give you a bit of an idea in that area too.

You don't say where you are in your profile. You might update it with your location. Who knows? One of us might be right around the corner.

[Al Willits]

If time isn't an issue, see if there's any short adult education classes around, I'm a newbie also and I took a class at one of the local high schools and got a basic of what I'll need.

I have discovered that wood working and tools, creates a hungry beast and the list of tools to make life easy goes on and on.

My first major project is also the kitchen and it has been a learning experience, maybe get a couple of books on cabinet making, might help give a look into what you'll need.

Unless ya have more disposable income than you need, or plan on making wood working a hobby, might want to give some thought to buying all the equipment you'll need... just a thought.

I'll cover the entire kitchen floor btw, especially where appliances sit, they may need service or cleaning and pulling them out can damage the edge of the flooring if the flooring ends at the appliance.
Not sure about under the base cabinets though.

Good luck, and welcome.

Al

[David Rose]

My cabinets were set on the linoleum in our kitchen. It could have just been the "order" of the way things went. I suspect it was to give more than just (unfinished) plywood in the bottom cabinet.

David

If time isn't an issue, see if there's any short adult education classes around, I'm a newbie also and I took a class at one of the local high schools and got a basic of what I'll need.

I have discovered that wood working and tools, creates a hungry beast and the list of tools to make life easy goes on and on.

My first major project is also the kitchen and it has been a learning experience, maybe get a couple of books on cabinet making, might help give a look into what you'll need.

Unless ya have more disposable income than you need, or plan on making wood working a hobby, might want to give some thought to buying all the equipment you'll need... just a thought.

I'll cover the entire kitchen floor btw, especially where appliances sit, they may need service or cleaning and pulling them out can damage the edge of the flooring if the flooring ends at the appliance.
Not sure about under the base cabinets though.

Good luck, and welcome.

Al

[Charlie Plesums]

{finishing} This is a major deterrent for me. That is why I was looking at laminate, but it takes away from the nice wood...

Personally I find laminates more complex than finishing. Although it is another new technology to learn, I suggest that you learn to spray. Then I would finish with Target USL - a water based spray lacquer that has the advantages of lacquer, the durability required by kitchen cabinets, the quick-dry that allows it to be done in a workshop, and the non-flammable nature of water-base finishes.

It "seems" so simple. I reviewed dozens of plans in books, and they all seem simple. I looked at the store cabinets, and they look... chinsy and rickety. 1/2" particle board with staples...

Now you know why so many people build them, or pay the far higher price than the big-box stores (the lumber dime stores) for custom cabinets. There is no step that is hard, but it is a big project, and experience is priceless in keeping the project from going on forever. That is why I suggested the bathroom cabinet to get experience and reinforce your decision/commitment.

If I decide to do it, I think I will be making European box(es), from 3/4" ply, with 3/4" x 3/4" wood front face frame. That way I have the strong front, yet not loose to the space. It will hopefully also help with finishing. I plan to paint the carcass white with thick glossy paint, and then screw/glue on the face frame.

If you only put a 3/4 inch solid wood on the edge of the 3/4 inch plywood, you aren't adding strength, but are adding a huge amount of work (to make the wood even with the plywood). If you want euro-style cabinets, I suggest veneer edgebanding rather than solid wood edgebanding (it is applied with a clothes iron and a block of wood). If you want face frame cabinets, I suggest that you use the traditional 1 1/2 inch face frames, with a slight overhang on the outside (makes installation easier), and most of the overhand on the inside, and use the different hinges designed to work with face frames.

I also noticed that most of the store boxes "feet" or that 4" below the door, (inset 3"), is part of the left & right stiles or walls. In most books it shows up as an additional "box" of sort, on which the carcass rests. In some cases metal feet, then just "kick board" all around. What is better, "standard"?

If your floor is uneven, it is easier to build a wooden base that is shimmed and trimmed to be level and even for the entire row of cabinets, then just set the cabinets on that "shared" base. If the floor is level, I find it easier to just build the "kick space" into the cabinets. I haven't found any stone tablets that say one way is right and the other is evil.

My short list of equipment would be

• table saw,
• router & table,
• claps of various kinds,
• drill bits of various types
• stapler
• and a large table to work on.

I would specify that the table saw be a fairly good one... the $500 and up kind, not the $200 kind.

I built my first two kitchens without a router table, and only got my first router half way through the first kitchen. It is a big help, but not a show stopper. If you want dovetail drawers or raised panel doors, I suggest you buy them premade if this is your first big project.

I would invest in 4-6 "K-body" clamps as soon as you are committed...they save a lot of effort, and help keep things square. I use Bessey, but there are several brands now available.

Don't spend a lot on drill bits - you will need a 35 mm drill if you use European hinges, plus a couple small drills for screw pilot holes.

Why do you want a stapler? I never use mine making cabinets.

My table is some scrap plywood on plastic folding saw horses. Not the fancy workbench that many people need (or at least think they need). And most people say I have a very fancy, complete shop.


Good Luck! Keep us posted!

[John Libertate]

Thank you for all the feedback.

I will run the flooring all the way to the wall.

Time is not an issue, because I am a single father, so no one to impress but my kids. Free time, is only available between 7:30p till 6:00am weekdays, and twice a month on weekends.

I would love to take a class, and I agree that would be the best way to learn or to ask someone to allow me to "aprentice" under them. Unfortunately that is no option for that. I do read veraciously, and have several books. My favorite is Robert Lang's "The Complete Kitchen Cabinetmaker".

After I posted the message, I discovered CNC routing! Talk about some serious time saver. It seems the closest one to me (in DE) is in Kentucky or Indiana... I would love to get a quote from them to find out how much it would "help". I think I am afraid of "cutting". As in cutting stuff, then not having the right size. Then the material is ruined.

Of course, single-piece items made with hand tools is still very interesting to me, so should I decide not to do the kitchen, I still want to do something else myself. I mean, if I can put together Ikea stuff, I should be able to put together a CNC-router-cut kitchen - since I drew it!

I included some pics, as I read somewhere "people like to look at pictures". The kitchen was burnt out, so I had to rip everything out.

The pictures are from different ends of the house.
First (before) is the fun part. Destruction. Took about three weeks because the neighbors kept complaining about all the banging late night.
The second pic shows how it is now. I have to replace the subfloor, since it is 1/2" thick and falling apart in various sections. Since I am very much leaning toward a bamboo floor for the whole first floor (less then 700sqft), I will have a chance to replace the subfloor everywhere else.

You might notice the thin slats against the concrete wall - the original cabinets hung off of those. I don't know how it stayed up. The studs vary from standard 2x4 and 2x3, electric in several places was cut in the wall then re-routed within the cabinetry. Talk about entertainment when I found them & how I found them! The drawing shows that the original kitchen had three windows but they where really just cut outs.

The general design (kitchen) is using a big-box store naming convention, since I wanted to price it out.

So that is where the kitchen will go.