High End Planes

[Mark Singer]

Mac,
There has been excellent advice given....the good news is if you buy a LN or LV plane and change your mind, the used market is strong and they hold their value which gives you the chance to get out without a large penalty

[Dave Anderson NH]

I just want to interject a little bit of reality here that we don't always think about. I could be wrong, but I would guess that over half of the folks here on the Creek are in the upper 50-60% in family income and perhaps I'm even underestimating the percentage. That still leaves a large number of folks who don't have either the kind of total income we enjoy or alternately have young families which limit disposable income.

We need to be sensitive to those who are not as fortunate as many of us. For some, the idea of going out and spending even $150-250 on a single hand tool is not a realistic possibility, or they have to plan carefully months in advance to be able to afford such a luxury for a hobby.

I would like to be clear that I am in no way criticizing anyone and their suggestions. It's just something we have to consider and keep in the back of our minds while trying to shove someone down the slippery slope.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Mac,

I often stay away from threads with certain key words, like high-end, best, etc., when it comes to tools and techiniques.

I would recommend reading Tyler's message again. Get a pre WWII Stanley, sharpen the blade, clean the sole a bit so it doesn't have gunk/rust on it, wax the sole with any kind of wax you have handy, and begin incorporating it into your woodworking.

That you have a block plane is a good start. That it may not be optimum for your use may or may not be true. Yes, the older ones are better machined. But take a couple pictures of it taken apart and post them. Make sure to show where the blade lays. We can help you make it perform better if we can see what you are dealing with.

Let hand tools prove their value to your work. Heck, it may sway you away and you'll have more money for wood.

Take care, Mike

[Andrew Homan]

For some, the idea of going out and spending even $150-250 on a single hand tool is not a realistic possibility, or they have to plan carefully months in advance to be able to afford such a luxury for a hobby.

Given what I wrote earlier, I feel that I should post a polite response to this. I included in my post the consideration that the price of a new LN or LV plane was a "stretch for many of us." Indeed, I am a person who considers the price to be a stretch, but worth it. I thought that I was clear about this, but now I read in Dave's post that there is "a bit of reality that we don't always think about." My post was the most obviously polemical, so I can't help but to feel addressed by Dave's post. I am sorry if I was unclear, but I really thought that that "bit of reality" was indicated in my post. Please re-read if necessary.

Just to make the point crystal clear: I can't afford a new car right now --- any new car, even the cheapest. But that doesn't mean that a new Ford or whatever is "high end." And I don't think that I should be made to feel guilty for suggesting that it isn't!

Respectfully, but puzzled,
Andy

[Jay Knoll]

Sometimes what appears to be the most expensive turns out to be a bargain. A couple of years ago I decided to buy a jointer plane and thought I'd save money buying it on eBay. I got burned badly, the plane was a "rocker"; my fault, I didn't check it in the alloted time. So, I ended up waiting a year and then buying a LV bevel up jointer -- it is a wonderful tool.

I decided that there are too many variables involved in getting good performance and I'd rather wait until I have the money and then buy a quality tool with a good reputation and spend my time developing my skills in using the tool rather than buying a "beater" and getting it to a condition that is usable.

I respectively disagree with Dave's comment. I can't possibly know the financial circumstances of anybody else who posts here. We all make our own economic decisions. I welcome the advice I've received and the range of options that are presented here. I hope we don't hold back because we are making assumptions of what someone can, or can't afford. I like hearing about the economical ways to do stuff just as I lust after some of those big shops I see posted. Give me your best shot, I"ll decide if it works for me (and I hope you do the same with my advice when I post )

Jay

[Eddie Darby]

I just wanted to point out that for some of us, well down the slippery slope, even L-N is not considered a "high-end plane." I've got more invested in one plane than in my entire cabinet saw setup...

Yes LN is not the highest point, but go past it, and you will not get a better performing plane. So I would say that LN gives you the best bang for your buck, and say something like a Karl Holtey plane, gives you a good working investment.

[Steve Wargo]

Yes LN is not the highest point, but go past it, and you will not get a better performing plane...

This is simply not true. If the high end infills planes didn't work better then there would be no need for them, no matter how pretty. My LN 4 1/2 with high angle frog paled in comparision to any of the Sauer and Steiners I've played with. The Holtey's, and Hutchinson planes also outperform my LNs. Now the question that needs to be asked is... "Is it worth the much extra $$$ for the increase in performance?" Some think not, some think so. Other's buy infill planes because they're pretty. But to say that they don't work better is absolutly ludacris.

[Eddie Darby]

I've seen Rob Cosman of LN Canada, take a brand new plane, unwrap it, remove the blade, and sharpen it for around 3 minutes, and then produce 0.0005" thick shavings from bird-eye maple.

In economics it is called the point of diminishing returns.

[Ken Bryant]

Mac,

I often stay away from threads with certain key words, like high-end, best, etc., when it comes to tools and techiniques.

Mike! And just when I had begun to think of "Wenzloff" as the very definition of high-end saws...

[Mike Wenzloff]

Still trying to get better...

I of course meant something when I wrote that--but what, only the Shadow knows...

When I teach a hand tool class or group, sometimes the questions tend to revolve around the best this, that or the other. And sometimes, the discussion will start based around the high price of this widget or that one. Or the best method. Or ...

There are no answers or often arguments which can be put forward that do not attempt to agree or dissuade. And often all that is accomplished is, well, nothing. Except an argument.

I like tools. They are a means to an end. Some of my tools are to put it bluntly, pitiful. Some are beautiful. All are functional and do what I need for them to do. Some cost me nothing. Some cost me more than another widget which would have been every bit as functional.

I enjoy making old tools perform their best--but I like making my new tools better. I have not ever had a new tool which could not be made better in some way. That goes for my saws, too.

The challenge for me is making my performance as good as my least performing tools.

Take care, Mike

[Mac Cambra]

Guys,

I dig the passion you all have for this but wasn't trying to start a debate of which was best or what defines high end, my primary question which seems to have been answered is there a discernable difference in performance. In this specific case it seems that there is a unanimous opinion that the answer is yes.

I have been burned before buying jigs or widgets that are seemingly expensive only to find that the results are no better or just marginally improved than what I was achieved before that being the case why spend the money right? It is not a matter of socio-economic position in sociaty either, I don't think I am ever going to be so rich that when I spend my money that I am going to not expect some benefit in return.

Anyway I really appreciate all of the inputs, spent a couple hours on ebay last night looking at vintage planes, placed a couple bids and I will probably buy a LN block plane for evaluation so to speak. It seems for me with hobbies like this most of the pleasure comes from the research and learning not just the end product that is produced, that is simply proof that I was successful in the objective undertaken. Don't get me wrong there is still pride associated with whatever is made.

Again thanks.

[Andrew Homan]

The challenge for me is making my performance as good as my least performing tools.

Well said! However, for beginners (like me), the challenge is sometimes to figure out what is not working due to the tool and what is not working due to technique. For me, with my first major plane, an old #7, I could only get "woody" (thick) shavings. I could tell that the blade and chipbreaker needed work but couldn't accomplish that on my own with the equipment I had in my shop and the level of knowledge and skill that I lacked. Eventually, I upgraded these components and now I see what the plane can accomplish. Only now can I work toward what you said about making my performance -- in both planing and sharpening -- as good as my least performing tools.

I've been reading this forum and others for months and have often noted the assumption that "you can get a 60 1/2 for $5" etc. as well as "what you need is this $250 new plane". I think that there is a place for both of these sentiments, and both have their drawbacks as well. For a beginner who doesn't have an "in-person" buddy who already uses handtools, I think it's important to hear both kinds of opinions. These threads do, however, seem to repeat on a cyclical basis. Perhaps if there were more FAQs posted on the web, from a variety of viewpoints, we would see fewer of these threads.

-Andy

[Dave Anderson NH]

Andrew, I wasn't aiming my post at anyone in particular or even responding on what is high end. I'm only bringing up the point so that folks remember that not everyone has the same resources.

I neither want nor expect anyone to hold back on their viewpoints about tool choices regardless of whether it's new or old, inexpensive or high end, or any other category. Free discussion with respect for the viewpoint of others is what this forum is all about. I was only trying to bring up something we sometimes forget. The vast majority of posters and lurkers on this site generally fit the standard woodworking demographic of male, over 35, family income at the higher end, etc, etc.

[Eddie Darby]

Anyway I really appreciate all of the inputs, spent a couple hours on ebay last night looking at vintage planes, placed a couple bids and I will probably buy a LN block plane for evaluation so to speak.
Again thanks.

I hope that everthing works out for you and that you are up to your ears in wood shavings in no time!!!

[Terek Johnson]

Whew... Where to start. So many avenues for discussion. My own handplane experience has run the gamut: the first plane I bought was a brand new Stanley #4. At the time just making shavings was good enough. As time went on (as I compared my results to others), I began to seek a little more refinement in my work. Next stop old Stanleys (when I say old, like 40's or older). And I immediately enjoyed and appreciated the better quality materials (wow! wood handles), and closer tolerances (and I still do). After years of happily planning away with an old flea-market type 11 #4 and garage-sale type 12 #7, the lure of Lie-Nielsen slowly began creeping into my subconscious. A few months ago I took the plunge and bought a new L-N #4. Whoa mama! That'sa one spicy meatball. They are nice, oh so nice. But... as has been so aptly addressed earlier: what's the primary wood species you work with? L-N's really make cherry shine like a diamond in an almost effortless way. They work great on softwoods too. But in my own experimenting, I've found old Stanleys work just as nice as a L-N on softwoods for a lot less moolah.
The primary difference I've noticed between my old Stanleys and the L-N is the presence in your hand. L-N's are noticably heavier than Stanleys, and that weight difference results in a different feel in your hands as your working the wood. It's difficult to really convey it accurately. The other major difference is the blades. The L-N blades are freakin' massive! When you sharpen them up good, they slice like butter.
The best thing you could do is find a woodworking shop that will allow you to test drive a couple of different brands.
Ultimately, I think you do get what you pay for. But, having said that, I'm not rushing out to outfit my shop in nothing by L-N, for most of what you need a plane for, decent old Stanleys are fine.