High End Planes

[Mac Cambra]

Being a relative newbie to this hobby I was wondering what the big deal is with with the high end planes from LN and LV. I have never had the pleasure of using one and I was wondering if their respective performance justifies the cost compared to an average Stanley plane bought at Lowes.

I know I said it, I probably will cause a collective gasp. I couple years ago I bought a block plane at Lowes, for somewhere around $30. I sharpened the plane iron on a Tormek, it is very sharp and still I am not getting the performance I would like. I chaulked it up to my experience and tool setup, but niw with all of the discussions dedicated to the tools I am not so sure. Maybe I just got what I paid for.

Can someone point out some of the differences that help to justify the expense or confirm my original suspicion that it isn't the tool it is the user.

Thanks

[Tyler Howell]

If you don't know I can't tell you!!
You just have to try them.
The best test is go out and get an old Stanley. Give it you best set up as a Newbie then take it for a ride.
Now unleash all the glory of a like sized LN. LN is plug and play, solid fits the hand and nicely balanced
The old Stanleys (I have 10 of them) were some of the best of there time. I'm so glad I learned to sharpen an fettle them under the watchful eye of a master.
You will never know until you try them both.
I don't recomend buying the LV or the LN unless your serious about using them. They are too fine a tool to let sit and collect dust.

[Eddie Darby]

Being a relative newbie to this hobby I was wondering what the big deal is with with the high end planes from LN and LV. I have never had the pleasure of using one and I was wondering if their respective performance justifies the cost compared to an average Stanley plane bought at Lowes.

Maybe I just got what I paid for.

Can someone point out some of the differences that help to justify the expense or confirm my original suspicion that it isn't the tool it is the user.

Thanks

I would have to say that the biggest difference has to be the "right out of the box" performance that a upper end plane gives the user. To get a Stanley or some other lower end plane to perform well you have to do a lot of "fettling". Some things can't be fettled either, ie. a thicker blade.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingp...g/fettling.htm

This can be a blessing in the sense that you learn that a tool can be improved, but the time spent can be a drawback. The expense is in the "attention to detail", and that will always cost money. Is it worth it? If it wasn't then these plane makers would be packing their bags.

I like what Rob Cosman of LN tools in Canada said regarding the plane market. Everyone who is a serious woodworker will want to own a top-end plane sooner or later. It is just a question of how many steps they take to get there. That's were EBay comes in to sell all those planes accumulated along the way.

"Try it! You'll like it!"

[Mike Henderson]

This is just my experience so it may not be true in all cases. I purchased a modern Stanley plane a while back and found that the blade would not hold an edge very well.

I have a number of older USA made Stanley planes and find that they work very well. I've only used a few LN and LV planes but have found all of them to be very good planes that worked well.

If you're just getting started with hand tools, I'd recommend that you purchase a couple of older planes on eBay and learn how to tune them up, which is best learned from a more experienced woodworker.

BTW, one easy way to identify "older" Stanley planes is to look at the hole on the lever cap. If it's a "keyhole" shape, it's older. If it's "kidney" shaped, it's newer (assuming all the parts are original).

After you work with the Stanely planes for a while, try to get your hands on a LN or LV and see if you find any difference. If they seem "wonderful" to you, you can sell your Stanley on eBay and get your money back.

Mike

[Doug Shepard]

I've got a Stanley Adjustable Mouth LA Block Plane that works very well although the blade needs to be resharpened more often and it comes out of adjustment fairly easily. It was bought new about 15 yrs ago from a big box store and from what I understand isn't as well made as the older Stanleys. I also couldn't really get it to work worth a darn and chalked it up to operator error. About 10 yrs ago I got my first Lie-Nielsen and was amazed. The realization dawned on me - So that's how they're supposed to work. I've since gotten the Stanley to work pretty well, but not without some hours spent doing what the experts call "fettling". I think that's French for: time spent monkeying with something you'd rather spend doing something else, and shouldn't have to do in the first place for a new plane. I also wouldn't have had a clue that it needed fettling until I had a couple of good planes to compare it to.

[Mark Singer]

As with many things( skiing, wine, food) the finer end is more appreciated as you develop skill and experience.....there is a difference, my old planes collect dust now...they are not necessary to enjoy woodworking...older planes do fine for that

[Mac Cambra]

What I am getting from these responses simply put is that primarily there is a difference performance and secondarily operator error or lack of fettling can limit cheaper planes.

My goal is not to become an expert in making a silk purse out of a sows ear, not good at compromising quality. That being the case and realizing that maximizing value for $$$ spent what planes make the most sense to buy?

I am trying to build up my collection of hand tools now that I have a well equipped shop from the standpoint of power tools.

Chisels are another commodity that one can drop a small fortune on, good thing is the WW can be done for a lifetime and the tools won't go to waste. Thry seem to retain a good portion of there value as well, especially with knowlegable folks like we have here.

Thanks

[John Kempkes]

I just wanted to point out that for some of us, well down the slippery slope, even L-N is not considered a "high-end plane." I've got more invested in one plane than in my entire cabinet saw setup...

[Hans Braul]

Just gotta chime in here and tell a story about something completely unrelated. In my younger days my passion in life was rowing. I ate, breathed, slept rowing. It was all that mattered to me. Even with all that enthusiasm for the sport, I damn near quit after a season of rowing poorly fitted barges that couldn't go fast if you fitted them with a 200 hp Merc. When I first stepped into a real racing shell after over a year of torture, it was like the clouds parted and the sun came out and I said "Hallelujah!!". The conventional wisdom was that it was a good thing to teach the novices in barges. I say foooey on that!! If anyone needs the positive reinforcement of feeling what it's supposed to feel like, it's a novice.

I have spent years playing around with a couple of crappy old planes, basically fumbling around in the dark and almost giving up. Then I bought a LV bevel up jack. And right out of the box, there was this magical hissing sound as the thinnest most perfect, uniform shavings came off the wood!

Why torture newbies with garbage? Let's face it, LV an LN planes are superior to the oldies in almost every way. They are better designed, more sturdily built, more precisely machined, than any of the oldies I've ever tried. Maybe some people with more experience than me can chime in and disagree, but on the whole, I think I'm right.

So why put new woodworkers through the pain? I say buy one good tool, and try it. If it gets you hooked, then you'll buy more and keep making nicer stuff. If you lose interest, hell it's only a couple of hundred bucks.

There's my 2 cents.

Cheers to all!
Hans

[Mark Sweigart]

If you have no interest in learning how to fettle, this is how I would rate the options (with best bang for buck being the criteria):

1) Old Stanley, etc. that has already been tuned by someone else.
2) LV (their goal seems to be make the best plane possible and not have much interest in classical looks, brass, etc.)
3) LN

That being said, comfort is the most important thing. If you find one of the options uncomfortable, go to the next on the list.

[Martin Shupe]

Buy one and try it.

You can get a LN or LV low angle block or rabbeting block (a good first user, very versatile) for $150 or so.

If you don't think it is worth the extra money, you can always sell it on ebay and get almost all of your money back. (at least if it is a LN)

I attended a hand plane class at www.kellymehler.com. The instructor was Deneb Puchalski. The class was excellent, and even though Deneb is the son-in-law of Tom LN, he did not "push" LN planes (he really doesn't have to, they sell themselves). Several students brought older Stanley planes that Deneb helped them to fettle. Some turned into very good users. Some added new LN or Hock blades to their older planes, and they were even better users. Then there were the folks like me, who just bought new LN's, and spent much less time fettling and more time planing. It is up to you. If you have the time, buy the older planes, but know what you are looking for. I was told by someone that you want a Bedrock (which will cost you $100-400 on ebay, depending on model, then you still have to work on it) or late model (Type 11?) Bailey. How much is your time worth? For what you will pay for a good condition Bedrock, you can pay LN in the first place and get an outstanding plane, right out of the box.

Also, a word of warning. One guy showed up with some planes that he bought when a school shop was sold at auction. They were Stanley's, but when he asked Deneb for help fettling them, he said "don't bother" and that it was a crime that Stanley ever sold a plane so worthless. Then he showed several reasons why the planes were junk, and they all made sense to me. So, if you are going to buy older Stanley planes, make sure they are old and good ones. I think pre-WWII is considered the best.

In the end, it is up to you, but if you buy a LN rabbeting block, you won't ever look back. That's what I did, and I've been hooked on LN ever since.

[Andrew Homan]

Being a relative newbie to this hobby I was wondering what the big deal is with with the high end planes from LN and LV.

I'm a beginner, too, and I use a mixture of old Stanleys and new LN tools. I have to say, I get immediate, great performance from the LN tools. My Stanley #7 was greatly improved by putting a LN iron and chipbreaker in it.

This is of course just my opinion, but I would prefer not to call new LNs and LVs "high end." They may be expensive relative to the current batch of Stanley junk sold at big box stores, but are not expensive relative to what it costs to operate skilled manufacturing (along with product development and very good quality control) in North America today. It would be cheaper to outfit oneself with random antique Stanleys, but not with the ones that are on the approximate quality level as a LN (Bedrock). (In some cases, the LN is cheaper -- for instance, the iron miter plane). I'm not saying that LN and LV are cheap -- but "high end" might be better applied to new infill planes, or perhaps to "special" models that these makers might offer, like the current LN special, the bronze 4.5. The LN and LV planes perform at the level that good tools should perform at, so I think it would be a shame if this standard of performance came to be viewed as "high end"! It doesn't change the fact that the prices are a stretch for many of us, and that we can't all afford every tool we want.

I don't know how much fettling was required on a Stanley Bedrock plane when it was new. A new LN or LV will require only a final honing of the blade to your preference, which I don't consider to be "fettling." I consider this to be a real accomplishment of LN and LV. I've heard very little about Clifton planes and I wonder whether it is because they have not reached this level of fit and finish, yet still have a price tag that corresponds to the relatively high cost of labor in England.

A final note. I work wood as a hobby, and with a new baby at home there is very little time for this. That means that there are days were I am only in my shop for a half hour, and some days not at all. I've really come to appreciate my smaller LN planes, which are bronze (a block plane and a #4). There is so little maintenance necessary for these planes. I can go out back and use one of them for a half hour and return to the house without having spent more that 30 seconds on maintenance. With the iron planes I feel that I have to spend a bit more time on rust prevention.

-Andy

[Roger Nixon]

Mac, the modern planes such as Stanley have plastic totes, soft blades and poorly machined castings. Buying the plane and replacing the blade and totes would put you close to the price range of a LV plane and you would not have the quality.
The pre-WWII Stanleys have nice rosewood totes, most have laminated blades that sharpen easily and hold an edge for a decent period of time. If you are dimensioning wood with planes, the older Stanleys work fine. I've had a few hundred planes and only a few have I bothered with "fettling". For final smoothing or polishing it is necessary to flatten the sole of the plane but that isn't much of a chore.
If you use fancy woods, you will need better planes. My best tuned Stanley smoothers can't hang with my Knight coffin smoother or my LV low angle jack when the grain gets really tricky. On most North American hardwoods, my Stanleys can handle all the work.

[Derek Cohen]

Mac

Welcome to the world of handtools. You will find it addictive and, dare I say it, quite sensuous.

Some might argue that you will learn the ropes best if you do it the hard way, that is, fettle an old Stanley until it is usable. I would suggest that you get one, preferably a #4 (smoother), to play around with, but concentrate your purchase on a new working plane so that you have a tool you can use and enjoy immediately.

Mac, I get the impression that you would like to equip a workshop of handtools straight away. Big mistake. You don't yet know what they are for. Treat each one as a special purchase in its own right and develop a relationship with it. That is what a handtool is all about - becoming an extension of you. I would begin with a decent block plane from LN or LV, along with a smoother. For the latter I would suggest a bevel up plane, such as the LV LA Smoother or LN #164. These are versatile, easy to use and capable of superior performance.

Here is my LV LA Smoother:



Do not fuss with "high end" planes at this point. Most of the LN and LV range are overkill anyway for the majority of woodworkers - unless you are working with wood that has much reversing grain. What I am saying is that middle-range planemakers such as LN and LV (and others such as Steve Knight, Clifton, C&W ...) will prove to be all you will likely ever need to build wonderful furniture. It is not the tool but the users skill that will need to improve.

High end planes are like this Marcow:



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mac Cambra]

You guys have offered some perspective and affirmed the age old addage of getting what you pay for. Further you have surprised me because I was of the belief that LN and LV were high end, I had no idea there were true high end planes that were an order of magnitude more costly.

I think I will be looking at the LN/LV more seriously now and hopefully with less cautious restraint regarding their performance.