What would you use on a crib?

[Rob Amadon]

David,
Steve and Rich both gave you some good advice. Finishing can be a confusing subject mainly because of the conflicting "facts" that you hear. As you read through these forums you will find that some people really know what they are talking about and some don't. Steve Schoene's advice can generally be treated as gospel, Howard Acheson (spelling?) is also very knowledgeable.

Try out some of the non-poly finishes that are appropriate for the project you are working on and you will increase the level of your work. I also recommend "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner, it is probably the best book out there for a person looking to learn the hows and whys of finishing.

Rob

[david babcock]

For ease of application Waterlox Original/Sealer is tops, looks good, and is quite durable. It takes 5-9 coats since each is so thin.

But the techniques of applying shellac aren't that hard to pick up--with the possible exception of French polish, which you don't often want. It doesn't need spray equipment at all. In fact I know some professional finishers who usually apply shellac by hand, even though they are fully equipped to spray.

5-9 coats? Steve, are you saying that waterlox is a shellac? I can wipe/brush shellac onto this project? I understand it has nice properties and appearance. Scratches dont show up on it like on poly. Still has a nice sheen and protects nicely- right?

[david babcock]

David,
Steve and Rich both gave you some good advice. Finishing can be a confusing subject mainly because of the conflicting "facts" that you hear. As you read through these forums you will find that some people really know what they are talking about and some don't. Steve Schoene's advice can generally be treated as gospel, Howard Acheson (spelling?) is also very knowledgeable.

Try out some of the non-poly finishes that are appropriate for the project you are working on and you will increase the level of your work. I also recommend "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner, it is probably the best book out there for a person looking to learn the hows and whys of finishing.

Rob

thanks for the recommendation on the book (and the creekers)- this is really what I need to do to get started I think.

[Steve Schoene]

Waterlox Original/Satin is a wiping varnish. The reason for the number of coats I mentioned is that wiped on coats are very thin. It typically takes at least 3 coats to build the equivalent film thickness of one coat of brushed on varnish.

As a varnish it is quite protective and the phenolic resin it uses is very tough.

[Rob Amadon]

thanks for the recommendation on the book (and the creekers)- this is really what I need to do to get started I think.

David,

I wasn't necessarily talking about the sawmill creek forum specifically. I meant all of the woodworking forums in general. Both Steve and Howard post on more than one forum. I don't want to imply that those two are the only ones here that know what they are talking about. I am actually pretty new to this forum myself and haven't been around here long enough to learn who is who.

Rob

[Corey Wilcox]

David,

I am an amateur at this, but I think the best advice you can get on finishing is that if you are in a hurry, don't even start. You can not rush a good finish (unless you are a pro and have been doing this for so many years you know where and how you can get away with it). While there are some awesome finishes out there that do dry quickly and provide good protection, there is no magic bullet so take your time. The finish is the most memorable part of a woodworking project and when it's done right people will always run their fingers over it and comment on how smooth and beautiful it is. The most incredible woodworking in the world won't be worth a hill of beans if it feels like sandpaper. My preferences for finish include shellac, tung oil, boiled linseed oil and Waterlox. Why? Because they're very forgiving and a novice like me can get awesome results using them if I'm patient. Do your sanding homework first and if you have any doubts if you've sanded enough, keep sanding. Let the dust settle in the shop (I like to wait overnight because I don't have a separate finishing area) and then tack cloth your piece religiously while not stirring up any dust. Put on LIGHT coats of whatever finish you like and LET THEM DRY. Do not rush or try to put on a thick coat or you'll end up with a big gummy mess or have polyurethane stalactites hanging off the sides. Also, don't buy a $0.50 brush and expect a $30 performance. Get a good brush appropriate for the finish you're using and take good care of it. It's worth the investment. I also find that most of the off the shelf spray cans for varnishes and shellacs are not half bad. They seem to work pretty good so if that route appeals to you, go for it, but use LIGHT coats. I like to sand very lightly with 320 or 400 grit between coats to get rid of nibs (I don't like steel wool, too many "hairs" left behind). It may not always be necessary, but it makes me feel more sure about the end result and I'm just stubborn that way. Tack cloth completely after every sanding. It will seem like it takes a long time and your shop or finishing area will be tied up during that time because you can't afford to stir up dust, but I never regret it when I'm done. Hope this helps.

[Rob Amadon]

Corey,

For a self proclaimed amateur you gave excellent advice. The only thing I would add is that you should not use a store bought tack cloth. They usually contain things that could cause adhesion and other problems. Wipe the wood down with a cloth dampened with mineral spirits or naphtha to remove sanding dust, both initially and between coats.

Rob

[david babcock]

Corey- excellent advice! You, and steve esp may be pleased to hear that I have taken your advice- and my day off- to read through a few books on finishes at the local woodcraft store. That place is like disney land for dads- sheesh, why have I been going to the hardware store all these years? They have a little library area that I sat down for a couple hours and read through some of the books. I can say that I am much LESS confused now!
I think that ive decided against polyacrylic and any urethanes for a topcoat. I will most likely use shellac (self mixed or check the manufactures date on the can) now that steve has told me about the spray can stuff- I may do some experimenting with that since I have some detailed stuff to hit.
STEVE I am a little curious as to why one rep there told me that she would top coat Waterlox. ?(with shellac)
Isnt waterlox a three part combination of varnish tung and some other delicious ingredient? Is it really necessary to put a shellac or top-finish on waterlox (as long as I use several coats as you have recommended?

ps COREY thanks for the pearls on finishing. Im setting up a little quarantine area for this now that you have me paranoid. My basement is a complete dustbowl.

Rob- the book you recommended said to wipe down with thinner- any thinner?

[Steve Schoene]

The rep was wrong, probably confusing Waterlox with an oil/varnish mix like Watco. Waterlox is a varnish pure and simple, not varnish and anything except the mineral spirits that thin it but that don't end up in the finish after it dries. Waterlox over shellac makes sense, the other way around not so much. Shellac is harder than the Waterlox (or other varnishes) and it's always a bit preferable to have the harder film finishes underneath rather than on top.

[david babcock]

The rep was wrong, probably confusing Waterlox with an oil/varnish mix like Watco. Waterlox is a varnish pure and simple, not varnish and anything except the mineral spirits that thin it but that don't end up in the finish after it dries. Waterlox over shellac makes sense, the other way around not so much. Shellac is harder than the Waterlox (or other varnishes) and it's always a bit preferable to have the harder film finishes underneath rather than on top.

Steve, this is REALLY going to display my ignorance: But I thought that the purpose of a topcoat like poly/shellac etc was to put the hard final finish on top to protect the wood and color?

[Steve Schoene]

But hard and protection aren't the same. Shellac is very hard--also a bit brittle and capable of being scratched fairly easily. That's why it rubs out so well. Traditional resin varnishes are somewhat softer but stand up better to abrasion and in particular perform well against household chemicals, Polyurethane varnishes (the consumer single-part kind) are actually softer than the traditional resin varnishes, they are about the same with respect to protection as the traditional resin varnishes except for superior resistance to heavy abrasion--they are well suited for floors. But for furniture, they give up a bit of clarity, are more finicky with respect to what they adhere, and less UV resistant. Their abrasion resistance actually is a major defect for furniture since it makes it harder to rub out polyurethane varnish to an even sheen. It is the softness of the polyurethane varnishes that allows them to yield to hard objects without scratching, where the harder finish is more brittle and has to scratch rather than deform and bounce back.

The really soft finishes, oils and oil/varnish mixes are so soft that they can't allowed to form a film, the are applied allowed to penetrate and then all on the surface is wiped off. If those are just used for coloration effects, such as grain popping, then they can be coated with film finishes. The hard ones go first--such as shellac which may be used as a barrier between certain woods or certain treatments, or which may be chosen for particular coloration. If these aren't deemed protective enough then a varnish can be applied over them. But putting the hard over the soft makes the hard even more vulnerable to damage by backing it up with a soft surface rather than a firm one. Also, it's putting its weakness, suseptibilities to household chemicals (ammonia is a true solvent for shellac) on top instead of being protected by the varnish.

[Rob Amadon]

Rob- the book you recommended said to wipe down with thinner- any thinner?

David,

I am confused. I must have forgotten what you asked about that Flexner said to wipe down with thinner and I am to lazy to go back and re-read the entire thread. What are you wiping down with thinner again?

Rob

[david babcock]

David,

I am confused. I must have forgotten what you asked about that Flexner said to wipe down with thinner and I am to lazy to go back and re-read the entire thread. What are you wiping down with thinner again?

Rob

Rob, my wife would say that she wants me to wipe my stomach and back side with a thinner. So far the thinner around here must be working soley on my hair.
But I think he mentioned putting thinner on a rag to remove dust from bare wood after sanding.

[Corey Wilcox]

Thanks for the reinforcement Rob. I honestly enjoy finishing my projects. It's one of my favorite parts of the process and I spend a lot of time trying to improve on each piece I make. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose and I have to start over, but it's always rewarding once it's done right. In regards to the advice on tack cloths, I will give your method a try instead of using store bought tack cloths. Lifting and flaking varnish due to poor adhesion would literally make me cry.

[Corey Wilcox]

David,

Paranoia is good for finish work in my opinion. I work in my basement and I've actually had to remind my wife to walk more softly so she didn't knock dust off the floor joists and on to my wet finish. I think she may have been worried about my mental state because she looked at me with concern and just tip toed off quietly. Good Luck with your projects!