group make/buy plane iron & wooden plane contest anyone?

[Chuck Saunders]

Steve,
The chopsaw would not be a problem because the heating period is brief and the heat treatment process brings the steel up to high temperature just like you would to anneal (make soft). It is the quench (cooling) that makes it hard, followed by the temper (reheating) that makes it tough.
Chuck

[Rick Lizek]

Woodcraft was selling the Hock Cryo blades for $40. Seems to me that's a reasonable price. Comsidering all the research and perfecting of the product I don't think the Hock blades are out of line on price. These kinds of do it yourself things to save money can actually cost more in the ling run. I make tools and machines for our shop and there's times they want me to make something because they think I can make it cheaper. Soemtimes I can but not always. Often the real reason to make something is becuase you want to as a learning experience. The money saving thing is often a myth.

With many tools it's typically much cheaper in the long run to buy from a manufacturer. Many folks don't realize it but there are more machines and handtools being produced than there were thirty years ago and beleieve it or not they are for the most part cheaper than they were thirty years ago, at least in machine tools.

Pre-hardened stock is available in standard widths and the holes can be cut by EDM (Electro Discharge Machine). There's even plenty of Cryo treatment places around. There's many ways to do this. I'd be posting it on the knife forums or machinist forums as they would be more in the know of such things.

[Steve Dewey]

...Often the real reason to make something is becuase you want to as a learning experience. The money saving thing is often a myth.

With many tools it's typically much cheaper in the long run to buy from a manufacturer. Many folks don't realize it but there are more machines and handtools being produced than there were thirty years ago and beleieve it or not they are for the most part cheaper than they were thirty years ago, at least in machine tools.....

I certainly don't disagree with this statement and actually have a hock blade on order from Lee Valley (should be here tomorrow ). For my own situation, in the interest of marital bliss - it is easier for me to spend a couple hours in the shop making something myself than it is to get the accountant to sign off on an expensive tool. I try to only go before "review board" if I absolutely need something because I don't hav ethe capability or because an upgrade will greatly improve my productivity (less shop time, more family time). Especially this project which even I consider a hobby on top of a hobby. If I were to factor my labor in, I'd be ahead to buy a plane (iron or woodie) from one of the better vendors than doing it myself. I'd also be ahead to have bought a LV or LN bench plane than spend the 4 hours I did flattening an old Stanley from ebay.

To sum up my Long winded response, the goal is to get 4 irons for $40 so I can enjoy the learning experience of building a hand plane 4 times. Sure the blade isn't going to be as good as the Hock blade, but should perform well enough for me to try making & using different handplanes. If I come up with a "keeper" and our DIY blades don't hold up, maybe then upgrade to a better iron...

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not an expert but from what I've read about heat treating steel, it appears that good control over temperature is critical to achieving optimum results. The old blacksmiths did it by eye but it took a lot of training and experiments to learn - and then it was not consistent. Without instrumentation or experience it will be difficult to achieve close to optimum results.

I would bite the bullet and get a professional heat treater to do the whole bunch at one time.

Mike

[Michael Fross]

I would bite the bullet and get a professional heat treater to do the whole bunch at one time.

Mike

I agree Mike. If we get enough folks interested, it's going to be very reasonable.

That being said, I've read Larson's book "Tool Making for Woodworkers" and it's really interesting stuff.

Michael

[Larry Williams]

... The old blacksmiths did it by eye but it took a lot of training and experiments to learn - and then it was not consistent. Without instrumentation or experience it will be difficult to achieve close to optimum results....
Mike

Give me a little time. I'm working on getting an article on the web that'll greatly simplify this and make accuracy easy. One possible issue is that I plan to put it on our web site. I don't know if I can post a link to an informatin page on a commercial site.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Welcome Larry Williams. I was really sorry you couldn't make it to Marlboro MA because of the snowstorm for the L-N event a couple of weeks ago. You are correct that you can't post a link to your website since it is both yours and a commercial one. In the interest of getting the information out to folks though, if you PM or email me with the link, I will post it when you are ready. That will keep us in compliance with the Terms of Service of SMC.

For those of you who don't know Larry, he is one of the owners of Clark & Williams Planemakers in Eureka Springs Arkansas. They produce some of the finest accurate reproductions of 18th century planes available anywhere. I have been fortunate to own one of his 55 degree smoothers for a few years now and it performs flawlessly. Larry is also an well known expert on antique hand tools, a teacher of planemaking, and a very experienced woodworker. This year he was honored by being named an Arkansas State Living Treasure.

[Steve Dewey]

Larry, after checking out your website (google the information Dave posted to find it) I'm honored that my thread was your first post here at SMC. From what I can tell from the writeups & pix, your work looks to be outstanding. Looking forward to your future contributions.

Regards,

[Blaine Harrison]

I've (failed at making) made one wooden plane. It was a class taught by Tod Hurley. The class included hardening the steel using MAPP gas and quenching in peanut oil. It was pretty cool (pun intended) to do. We did grind out a rough bevel on a grinding wheel before heating/quenching, but it was really quite easy and quick. The last step was to be done at home, which was to heat the blade to 350° F for about an hour to get the final hardness of RC 58-62 (I think those were the parameters).

Blaine

[Andrew Homan]

I'm responding to the point about saving money when making blades being a myth. The blades that I got -- coming out to $7 including shipping -- are of a simplicity not available in Hock's line of products. These are not slotted for chipbreakers and of course do not include a chipbreaker or chipbreaker screw. They are 1/4" thick, beveled at 45 degrees (this was done to save time), and heat-treated by the same heat-treater used by Hock. The guy who did this for me makes planes for his own use with no chipbreaker.

I also have a Hock blade/chipbreaker combo for use in making a Krenov plane.

The design of the plane will of course vary based on whether a chipbreaker is used.

I'm not sure how many irons were in the total batch, but the total cost of the heat-treating must have been reasonable. I'd be interested in making some blades for grooves and mouldings. There currently are no commercially available blades for making these styles of wooden planes.
-Andy
P.S. am really happy to see Larry posting on this forum -- hello!

[Zahid Naqvi]

Larry, wow! good to have you amongst us.
My impression was that we were going to get together a bunch of guys who want to get plane baldes (probably multiple each). Once we are done with shaping, boring holes, grinding primary bevels etc. we will send it to a guy who will get it professionally heat treated by a manufacturer.

So why is there so much concern about propper heat treating, we are not the ones doing it. Or did I miss something along the way.

[Michael Fross]

By the ways, what width's is everyone thinking? My first plane will be a smoother, I'm thinking about 2 inchs or perhaps 1 3/4.

We'll probably need to agree on one or two sizes. I'm pretty open, however.

Michael

[Mike Swindell]

The composition of O1 tool steel, which is the ideal steel for plane provides a fool proof method when the steel obtains the right color - it becomes non magnetic. Once your hunk of steel becomes non magnetic, quench it in peanut oil, grind your bevel and harden in your toaster oven.

Regarding chipbreakers, the jury is still out. Steve Knight, Clark and Williams and others do not use a chip breaker in their designs. As long as you have a very tight mouth or adjustable mouth no chipbreaker is required.

Here's two planes I made without chipbreakers and adjustable mouths, they work quite well. I stole the design of the wedge tension from the Aussie, whose name I can't recall. The irons were made by a member from another forum for $25 ea. he heat heatreated in his back yard forge.

[Mike Swindell]

Hock tools has a good web page on heat treating, http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.htm

[Tom Cooney]

Making woodies is a blast. I've made a few using hock double irons and some with a single blade. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29422

I made the single blades by hacksawing O1 blanks smoothing the edges with a file and rough grinding the bevels...it's a lot easier to remove the metal at the annealed stage. A propane torch, vice grips, heat glove, some fire brick and old motor oil for quenching sufficed to handle the heat treating. I used the toaster oven (please don't tell the Mrs.) and a the oven thermometer to temper. All in all a fun activity and not hard at all.

I really want to start building some simple molding profiles starting with some hollows and rounds.