Now I'm NOT staining maple cabinets............

[Mark Rios]

(I was just going to change the title of my other thread and add to it but there isn't an edit button anymore. Can someone please tell me what I'm missing? I can't edit my post.)


Anyway, I talked the customers of my kitchen remodel job into payiing for a couple of hours of interior decorator time. Among other things, she talked them out of the stain choice for the cabs and I now only have to put a clear finish on my maple cabs. WOOOOOO.....HOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

So, what do you finish maple cabinets with when finishing them clear? Can I finish the insides and outsides together at the same time? With the same material or not? Lacquer or polyurethane?

The kitchen is ready for me to hang the cabs but maybe I should put the clear finish on them first?

Thank you very much again for your help and advice.

[Nancy Laird]

Mark, spray with one coat of sanding sealer, lightly sand with 400 grit, and spray on three coats of lacquer. Best finish in the world!!

And yes, you can do inside and outside at the same time.

Nancy

[Jim Becker]

To be clear about Nancy's advice, the sanding sealer should be lacquer sanding sealer or what's called "vinyl sealer" as it will burn in with the subsequent coats of lacquer.

If you don't want to do traditional lacquer (or don't have the safe environment to spray it, consider a water-borne product. Either one will keep the maple the most "natural" color. (I use Target Coatings USL and it's held up wonderfully in my kitchen)

Do not use an oil-based varnish, including polyurethane resin varnish on the interiors of those cabinets...it will off-gas odor virtually "forever". Oil-based on the exterior will noticeably change the color of the maple...from a very light amber to darker, depending on the particular product.

[Nancy Laird]

Thanks Jim for clarifying that. Yes, it should be lacquer sanding sealer. I've done this for so long that I spaced that little piece of information.

Nancy

[Mark Rios]

Thanks for the advice. Are there brush-on products available for this waterborne application? I have no means of spraying any material. Target Coatings brush-on?

Thanks again very much.

[Nancy Laird]

Mark, from our experience, brushing lacquer just leads to tears, throwing things, and @#$^%^& language. Unless you are brushing something flat, you will always have runs, and with a brush the coverage isn't always even, depending on your skill with a brush. Takes longer to dry between coats too, as the sprayed coats will dry in an hour. You might be better off to consider investing in an HVLP gun, small compresser, and build a small cardboard spray booth for this job. If you want some specific guidance, PM me and I'll have David give you his expertise.

Nancy

[Tim Sproul]

Go to the Target Coatings website. They have instructions in there. There is a water borne varnish formulated specifically for brushing. Jeff Jewitt also has a write-up on Target's website about wiping on water borne finishes.

For this, I'd probably use it as a good introduction to spray finishing. Nail a couple plywood boxes together to practice on, get a spray gun (perhaps like the one Jim likes or if budget isn't too much concern, I'd get an Asturo gun from Jeff Jewitt) and some finish. After a few practice coats, I was able to lay down finish that turned out better than anything I could apply by brush...especially to things like frame and panels doors.

For waterborne like Target Coatings, you might want to get some amber colored Transtint.....the USL and 9300 that I've used is very very very clear and tends to make light colored woods like hard maple look bleached out when those coatings are used alone. An alternative to adding Transtint to the waterborne is to get some of the waterborne shellac - color depends on what you're looking for - and use that as the sealer. If you use USL, USL does not need any additional sealer, IME it can be applied to bare wood.

[Larry Fox]

I can also throw out a vote for the Target products and I agree with the advise of setting yourself up to spray as opposed to brushing. Finish quality aisde, a set of kitchen cabinets has a LOT of surface area and it seems that brusing would take forever.

The USL is a wonderful product but you might also want to look at their Conversion Varnish product for the outsides. The Target site suggests that it might be a bit more durable.


Another thing to consider for the interiors of the boxes is pre-finished ply. You can buy it in maple and it really saves a lot of time. I am wrapping up a kitchen and used it and not having to finish all that surface area was a huge timesaver.

If you don't want to go pref-finished you might also want to consider finishing the box parts prior to assembling them. Doing them flat will be a lot easier than twisting yourself around to get to all the nooks and crannies inside the boxes.

[Nancy Laird]

Another thing to consider for the interiors of the boxes is pre-finished ply. You can buy it in maple and it really saves a lot of time. I am wrapping up a kitchen and used it and not having to finish all that surface area was a huge timesaver.

If you don't want to go pref-finished you might also want to consider finishing the box parts prior to assembling them. Doing them flat will be a lot easier than twisting yourself around to get to all the nooks and crannies inside the boxes.

Two things:

First, a suggestion for the boxes - use double-sided melamine, glued and screwed, with maple faceframes and doors. No one looking at them would ever guess they are melamine on the interior--light-colored, easy to clean, and need no finishing. That's what we did in our kitchen, with oak faceframes and oak veneer on the end panels, and no one ever notices unless it is pointed out to them.

Second, if you intend to use maple for the boxes, be VERY CAREFUL if you decide to finish prior to assembly. Finishing prior to assembly can make your assembly very touchy, as glue doesn't adhere well to the lacquer. If you decide to go this route, make sure that you dry-fit the boxes, then mask all of the joint areas so you don't get finish on the places where you need to glue. You certainly don't want the boxes falling off the wall because the glue joints failed (I've had that happen).

Nancy

(Edited to correct spelling which totally changed the meaning of a phrase - duh!!)

[Larry Fox]

Two things:

First, a suggestion for the boxes - use double-sided melamine, glued and screwed, with maple faceframes and doors. No one looking at them would ever guess they are melamine on the interior--light-colored, easy to clean, and need no finishing. That's what we did in our kitchen, with oak faceframes and oak veneer on the end panels, and no one ever notices unless it is pointed out to them.

Definitely another option - I just assumed ply as that is what I used so it popped into my mind right away.

Second, if you intend to use maple for the boxes, be VERY CAREFUL if you decide to finish prior to assembly. Finishing prior to assembly can make your assembly very touchy, as glue doesn't adhere well to the lacquer. If you decide to go this route, make sure that you dry-fit the boxes, then mask all of the joint areas so you don't get finish on the places where you need to glue. You certainly don't want the boxes falling off the wall because the glue joints failed (I've had that happen).

Certainly good advise. Another case of something not occurring to me as it was not an issue for me. I used pocket-hold screws where things would not be seen and reinforced the joint where they would. Funny how you get tunnel-vision after doing things a certain way for a while.

[Mark Rios]

Thanks very much for all the advice.

The cabs have been assembled and ready to hang for a couple of weeks now. I built them first and then started on the kitchen. After moving a couple of walls, adding joists to the floor to accomodate tile, running new electrical and changing some plumbing, repairing and finsihing the drywall and finally doing some painting today, the kitchen is ready for the cabs now. I will install over the weekend and the Countertop company comes to template on Wednesday. I will then have 3 weeks to finish the cabs.


I guess I will have to look into spraying. I'll need to get a gun (RECOMMENDATIONS? ) but I don't want to have to do a bunch of mixing and tinting and stuff like that. I don't have any trouble with my spraying technique due to my bodyshop background, my spray painting abilities are fair. However, spraying cabinets inside and out is considerably different than spraying a car; Many more angles in the cabinets!!! Plus, even though I've sprayed many cars and car parts in my life, I don't really like spraying. Too bad for me I guess, huh?

Spray equipment ideas, please?????.............and..........What's a Jeff Jewitt?

Thanks very much again for all the help and advice.

[Tim Sproul]

First, a suggestion for the boxes - use double-sided melamine, glued and screwed, ..........


Second, if you intend to use maple for the boxes, be VERY CAREFUL if you decide to finish prior to assembly. Finishing prior to assembly can make your assembly very touchy, as glue doesn't adhere well to the lacquer.

IME, melamine doesn't accept glue well at all....even epoxy doesn't adhere well to melamine. On top of that, particle board - which the most common substrate for melamine - isn't very good at holding screws....so if I had a choice, I'd opt for prefinishing plywood and then assembling with glue and screws over double melamine assembled with glue and screws.

you can get away from worrying about the glue issues by joining your cabinets with rabbets and dadoes rather than simple butt joints. The milling required for rabbets and dadoes will expose raw plywood/particle board/mdf and those all are very good for glue joints. Rabbets and Dadoes also make assembly for a one-person shop go a lot more smoothly/easily/quickly compared to assembling casework that is simply butt jointed.

[Jim Becker]

Tim, using the correct fasteners for the Melamine cabinets is critical...Confirmat does the job and you can use butt joints for simplicity. Dowels or biscuits help with alignment. RooGlue provides additional help, although is not necessary.

That said, I personally prefer the finished plywood aesthetically, my self!

[Jack Clark]

and..........What's a Jeff Jewitt?

Jeff Jewitt = one of the supreme leaders of the fine finishing universe.

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

[Nancy Laird]

IME, melamine doesn't accept glue well at all....even epoxy doesn't adhere well to melamine. On top of that, particle board - which the most common substrate for melamine - isn't very good at holding screws....so if I had a choice, I'd opt for prefinishing plywood and then assembling with glue and screws over double melamine assembled with glue and screws.

Tim, you are right--straight melamine doesn't glue well--there is a special glue made for melamine, and it sucks; but if you are using rabbets and dados to expose the base material, they will glue well with yellow glue. We use a square-drive screw in conjunction with the glue--don't recall exactly, but they are made particularly for this application. I've had cabinets hanging in my kitchen and dining room for over five years now with no failures or sagging--made of melamine with oak face frames.

My biggest problem with using ply for the cabinets is that if you spill something in the cabinets--which DOES happen--it's a bear to clean up off the ply. Something like syrup, vinegar, or oil with soak into the ply, even finished, and ruin the shelf. The slick surface of the melamine won't let the spill soak in and it's easily wiped away with a wet rag. Additionally, the white/ivory/almond color of the interior of melamine cabinets makes it easier to find things inside--ask your wife if she'd rather have a purse with a white interior or a black one.

[/quote]you can get away from worrying about the glue issues by joining your cabinets with rabbets and dadoes rather than simple butt joints. The milling required for rabbets and dadoes will expose raw plywood/particle board/mdf and those all are very good for glue joints. Rabbets and Dadoes also make assembly for a one-person shop go a lot more smoothly/easily/quickly compared to assembling casework that is simply butt jointed.[/quote]

Even with rabbets and dados, you MUST make sure that the parts to be glued together don't have any finish on them, or they won't glue up well. Shoving a shelf into a dado is still going to put pre-finished material against unfinished, which will make for a poor glue joint.

But, as you know, if everyone liked the same thing..... Variety makes the world go 'round. My way isn't everyone's way, nor is yours, so I guess Mark will have to make his own decision.

Nancy