Festool Domino

[David Dundas]

Rick,

I was glad to hear that You Tube are apparently less strict than this forum is when it comes to material that could be interpreted as promotional. I originally made the mistake of thinking that Sawmill Creek had similar rules to my usual forum down under with regard to ads. My home forum allows them on its For Sale forum, as long as they are not unduly obtrusive.

I agree that the domino outrigger accessories are more trouble than simply marking out the domino positions with a pencil, as is done with biscuits. I find I never use my outriggers, but maybe I am missing something. But I have a confession to make: I still tend to use a biscuit joiner for edge joining. I find it more forgiving than the Domino for that task.

David

[Art Mann]

I think 10% market penetration is quite high. I doubt if 10% of the woodworking population currently owns a biscuit cutter or a high end doweling jig. I would expect the percentage of woodworkers who will eventually buy a Domino is much smaller than that. The Sawstop is another example of clearly superior technology that is out of reach of the average woodworker. I have observed that a lot of owners of Festool and Sawstop equipment talk as if others are just foolish who don't use the equipment. They seem arrogant but I don't think they really are. They simply don't realize the financial status of the rest of the community. I would say a majority of woodworkers will never spend $1000 on a tablesaw, much less a high tech morticing machine.

[Dave Avery]

Art,

......... Hobbyists who are affluent but time-poor will like the Domino because it enables them to achieve a lot in a limited time.

David

Bingo...... I really enjoy woodworking, but tend not to start big projects because I know it will take forever for to finish. I enjoy design. I also enjoy some of the construction processes like vacuum veneering and the creativity associated with using veneers. I don't enjoy preparing stock. I don't enjoy cutting joints. So a tool that makes quick work of one of the processes that I don't like is absolutely PERFECT for me. Best. Dave.

[Rob Blaustein]

They simply don't realize the financial status of the rest of the community. I would say a majority of woodworkers will never spend $1000 on a tablesaw, much less a high tech morticing machine.

But how much will they spend on wood, hardware and consumables like glue and finishing products for their projects over the course of several years? It seems like much more time and energy is spent discussing the cost of tools, or shopping around for the best deals (and I'm as guilty of this as the next guy), when in the long run the costs of wood etc may end up dwarfing the cost of many of our tools.

[David Dundas]

Also, the cost of a high-quality tool is a one-off expense. If you make the reasonable assumption that a Domino will last you 10 years with no further costs other than the purchase of domino tenon stock, then the cost of owning one is less than 30 cents per day. I am not sure what the extra daily cost would be, if you needed to take out a loan in order to afford the initial purchase, but I doubt if it would be more than 10 cents a day over 10 years. So the cost of owning a Domino when looked at over the likely life of the tool would be much less than the cost of a daily can of beer or a pack of cigarettes - indulgences which are not normally regarded as the exclusive preserve of the rich.

David

[Dennis O'Leary]

This is a hard row to hoe D. you might be better off in the shed building something, or having a beer on the Friday drivel back home.....

I looked at it (amongst many others) this way; friends bought a sleigh type KS bed, nicely done (in stained Radiata pine ) that cost them over $US3500. Assuming that the matress was say $1200, the timber bit was about $2300. I was lucky that my timber cost zip, but had I bought it I suppose it would have been about $1K. Assuming you guys can get The Dom for about $US1200, you can charge yourself out at about $2/hr, and come out even - and own a Domino. Paid for in one project. There ya go, see?

Same would go for say a dining table, or a new kitchen, or maybe a bedroom suite, etc.

Good luck.

[Art Mann]

But how much will they spend on wood, hardware and consumables like glue and finishing products for their projects over the course of several years? It seems like much more time and energy is spent discussing the cost of tools, or shopping around for the best deals (and I'm as guilty of this as the next guy), when in the long run the costs of wood etc may end up dwarfing the cost of many of our tools.

Look at it this way. If a guy has a $1000 to spend on woodworking for a year, will he spend it all on a hand held joinery machine and then wait a year to use it or will he use a much cheaper tool and spend the rest of the money on other less expensive tools and materials to make something useful? I know it is hard for some people to comprehend, but this is exactly the choice a majority of woodworkers have to make.

I have said all this because of a thread I read the other day (may have been another WW board). Some guy posted a message and photo about a panel saw he made from plans in a magazine. I doubt if he spent $150 on it. He was obviously very proud of it and pleased with it's performance. I went to his website and discovered that he is mostly blind and disabled. Well, along comes this guy who replies something to the effect that it was a waste of effort and he would be better off buying a Festool circular saw and saw guide. I just can't bring myself to believe that this second guy was such a complete arrogant a$$. I have to believe that the second guy was just ignorant of the way things are with people of lesser means.

My own financial situation is such that I can buy whatever woodworking equipment I want whenever I want it within reason. But, it was not always this way. I remember when a 1975 $200 sorry Craftsman tablesaw was one of my most prized posessions. Perhaps that is the reason I have not pre-ordered my sexy $1000 handheld joinery machine.

[David Dundas]

People who don't feel motivated to lay out $1000 dollars for a Festool Domino can still enjoy the benefits of floating-tenon joinery using Domino tenons by routing the mortises with metric spiral upcut bits. Such bits are as rare as hen's teeth in North America, but they are manufactured by CMT in Italy - see http://www.cmtutensili.com/prodotti.asp?FamCatalogo=191 . I hasten to add that I have no commercial connection with CMT. I imagine that the metric bits should be obtainable from CMT's distributors in the US and Canada.

Bits with 5, 6, 8, and 10 mm cutting diameters - to match the thickness of Domino tenons - are all available on 8 mm shanks, which should fit in a 1/2" to 5/16" bushing adaptor.

David

[Greg Millen]

That's all they are, statistics, but interesting nonetheless.

I looked at the general forum General Woodworking and Power Tools then sorted it by views. The Festool thread is #10 with a bullet (12,000+ hits), the other threads are now relatively defunct.

This indicates to me that Sawmill Creek members have an inordinate interest in the Domino. Their interest is so high that it is higher than any other tool thread, period. That indicates to me that a lot higher percentage of woodworkers are interested than normal, and following that, it is likely the uptake of the tool will be a higher percentage than normal.

If one is to assume there is a high interest in the fact it is a new tool only, then I'd expect to see a similar high interest in all tools that are new, which is not the case.

To tackle an earlier analogy, a Mercedes and another vehicle can perform the same role at the same speed (transit A to B). A Domino is performing the role much faster than its competitors and is portable. However I do agree that a real competitor that does the same thing more cheaply will be very popular - and that brings me to the final point I'd like to make.

The discussion has not been about whether the Domino does the job or not, it is about price. I can pretty much guarantee that if it sold for $50 then 99% of the forums viewers would stampede off to get one. So, the real issue is the price point decision by Festool, and the price point desires of the potential buyers. On this aspect I agree with some others who have stated that time will be a major factor. For a lot of us it would be nice to be able to joint legs etc very quickly and accurately so we can finish a project in a weekend instead of two or three. It is the same reason we fly instead of driving the Mercedes - to save time.

[Jim Becker]

Greg, While I do believe there is a high interest, relatively speaking, for Domino within the SMC community...especially with the mix of hobbyists and pros we have...the number of hits on a thread are statistically not a good measure of the "actual interest in buying". I say that because popular threads are just that...a lot of folks looking in on the discussion which we can all admit has been, umm...stimulating.

[Art Mann]

A few weeks ago, the hot topic was Sawstop. I would guess the number of posts on this subject eclipsed the Domino threads right now by an order of magnitude. A lot of folks are interested in both machines (including myself) but I would guess the Sawstop has less than 1% market share. I don't think that "buzz" equals sales.

The point about being able to do a tedious job in record time with the Domino is a good one. For this reason, I will probabaly get one at some point. I just wanted to make the point that, for a majority of woodworkers, time is not more valuable than money. To borrow another person's analogy, air travel may be the quickest way to get there and a Mercedes may be a stylish way to make the trip, but if all you have is gas money, then you will take whatever vehicle you already own.

Based on my observations since joining the board, I would say that this community is definitely not representative of the woodworking community at large. We are mostly a pretty affluent bunch.

Getting all the way back to the original poster's question, I think the Domino is an innovative product that will be very useful to those who can afford it. It will have no effect on the great majority of woodworkers.

[Jim Becker]

Based on my observations since joining the board, I would say that this community is definitely not representative of the woodworking community at large. We are mostly a pretty affluent bunch.

I don't quite agree with that...IMO, SMC's community is a really good representation of the woodworking community at large (at least those who are Internet active) when you look at the registered user community holistically...that's actually to be expected statistically with a larger sample. Now it may be true that there are a lot of frequent posters who embrace the higher end, but that's starting to have a domino effect, pardon the expression , on the community as a whole because folks are becoming more aware of options that don't appear on the shelves of the local 'borg or Sears store. This awareness is helping more folks understand the value of saving a little longer to make their purchases cost less over time.

[David Dundas]

I was disappointed in the review of the Domino in the current Fine Woodworking magazine. The review misleadingly implies that the domino tenons are sized in inch, rather than metric, dimensions. It also opines that dominoes would not be strong enough for the joinery of a large table, such as a dining table. This is nonsense in my view; two 10 mm x 50 mm dominoes would make a very strong joint. On the other hand, their criticism that the index pins are too far (37 mm in fact) from the center of a mortise that the machine cuts is fully justified. It is a major design flaw, which hopefully will be rectified in later models.

The review also omits to mention that the Domino has been available in Europe and Australia for almost a year, and that release in the US has been delayed only because of the expected heavy demand, and the need to manufacture adequate stock to meet it.

[Mike Wilkins]

Got a chance to see this new innovation in action at the Greensboro woodworking show last Thursday. Great concept. Its like a slot mortiser that is usually floor mounted or attached to a jointer/planer, just in a portable form. Easy to index/align, cuts accurate slots, can make allowances for glue squeeze-out, useful on any size timbers and miters, no need to mark your location with a pencil mark like your biscuit jointer (unless you want to), easy adjustments for different size slots, easy bit change, and the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound.
Seriously, this is one neat concept. The slots themselves are not like the usual biscuit we are used to; solid straight grain beech. Does not swell up like a biscuit does when it meets glue.
Only hinderance I can see at this point is price. Around $700, which only includes a small amount of slots. It will also make for a much stronger joint than a biscuit. But I am not ready to toss my biscuit machine yet.
Have fun.

[Daniel Hundrup]

They are $700. The introductory price is $660. I had the chance to use one at my local Woodcraft store this weekend. I ordered one! It is the answer Iv'e been looking for to join the rails & stiles & rockers on cradles I make. It will significantly ruduce the time I was spending joining these pieces.
Dan Hundrup, Lewiston, Id.