Backsaw question

[Greg Stanford]

I'm a powertool user, reasonabley adept, who's looking to begin using hand tools more often. I thought I'd start by hand cutting the dovetails on a chest I'm building for my 2 yr old son. I looked at saws on my last trip to Woodcraft (I looked at the local bigbox stores also but even someone as ignorant as I can recognize junk) thinking I'd get just a good all purpose backsaw. The Lie-Nelson saws are absolutly beautiful but for me to justify buying one of those, I'd have to frame it & hang it on the wall in my shop. My skills just don't merit the expense. I was looking on-line & saw the Putsch backsaw, would it be a good "starter" saw? Is there somewhere else I might be looking? Any help is appreciated.

g

[jonathan snyder]

Hi Greg,
Welcome the the Creek! I too am just learning to cut dovetails. I cut my first set of halfblind yesterday. I too was in your position of not being able to afford a new premium saw, so I opted for a vintage dovetail saw. For a very reasonable price you can get a vintage saw all tuned up, sharpened, and ready to cut. I purchased my saw (1890's Bishop) from a fellow in Florida who was recommended by another creeker. PM me if you would like his contact info, he does not have a web site.

Jonathan

[Brad Woods]

Greg,

I own a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. It is a great saw. I've used other saws that were poorly sharpened and they make a simple task very difficult. A well tuned saw, as others here will tell you, makes all the difference. An old saw will serve just as well as a new one, but if you want new and can afford it, get a nice one. They are worth every penny you will spend. Just my $.02

Brad

[Bob Hallowell]

Those expensive saw are worth every Penny. I Own a Wenzloff and it is great and I would highly reccomend it. if not you can buy an older backsaw and tune it up but if you are just starting this route that can take a little to learn and it would be nice to know what a good saw feels like.

That being said you could by a japanese pull saw that would work well but I pefer the western stlye but thats just me.

Bob

[Ken Bryant]

My experience has been that using a bad saw always made me feel like an even worse woodworker than I really was. The first time I used a good saw I discovered that I could cut straight lines after all -- a skill I had come to think was magic only others could acquire.

Of course, I'm sure an experienced woodworker could cut straight lines even with a bad saw. So here's the paradox: In some ways it's even more important that the worst beginner have the best saw...

[Robert Rozaieski]

Look up "woodnut4" on ebay (I have no financial interest, just a satisfied customer). Darryl Weir (hope I spelled his name right) tunes up and sharpens old saws and sells them on ebay and they cut just as good as a new high end saw. I even sent some of my backsaws that I did not buy from him to be retoothed (changed from crosscut to rip) and sharpened and all of them came back perfect and cut great.

Today, I would buy an older saw and tune it up myself now that I've practiced some and aquired the tools to do so, but when just starting I would definately recommend an older saw that has been tuned properly by someone who knows what they are doing so you can see for yourself how a good saw should cut and track. Darryl does a great job.

If you don't want to go the old saw route, your choices for a good western dovetail saw are limited to the high end ones (LN, Adria, Wenzloff) or to buying a cheaper one like a Paragon (what I bought and sent to Darryl to be refiled) and having it refiled into a rip tooth since almost all of the cheaper saws come filed crosscut and dovetailing is a ripping opperation. Buying the Paragon and sending it out to be refiled was still almost half the price of a new high end saw, albeit the handles are nowhere near as nice or as comfortable as those of a LN, Adria or Wenzloff, but that's a future project on the tuit list.

It all comes down to personal budget and preference. The cheaper saws can be made to cut and handle just as well as the high end new saws, they just aren't ready out of the box. They take a little extra work to get them set up properly. The high end new saws are good to go as soon as you get them. If I had to go back, I would have skipped buying the Paragon and just bought directly from Darryl but I didn't know any better at the time. Now, my Paragon saws cut just fine and I have no reason to replace them (just their handles).

The other option is a Japanese saw but I won't discuss those saws as I've tried them and don't like using them. Personal preference. Someone else more knowledgable of them can discuss them.

[Greg Stanford]

First off, thanks for the responce--the world of handtools appears somewhat complicated & I can use the guidance. So, no one would recomend the Putsch saws, Lie-Nelson would seem to set the standard for saws & apparently for planes as well, & vintage (reconditioned?) tools are a possible option. I looked again at the Lie-Nelson, thinking that I'd go ahead & get one of the beauties, but now I'm thinking that I'd need both -- one for ripping as in the dovetails & the other for crosscuts. I can see that this is going to get quite expensive as I've been looking at planes as well. For someone toying w/ the idea of weaning themselves (at least partially) off power tools, what would be a good basic set of tools? I do have a decent or at least what I thought was decent set of chisels. I have some old planes that were my Father's or Grandfather's -- a Stanley block plane, a Dunlap (I think that's right) bench plane, & what I guess is a smoothing plane that I can't see anything on it to identify it. I would need to take these apart & do some serious cleaning as they've gathered dust (& rust) for many years in my Mother's garage. I saw a link once on this site that delt w/ cleaning old planes, I'll see if I can find it. Sorry this is so long, I feel like an alcoholic that's wandered into an AA meeting -- Hello, My name's Greg & I'm a power tool user . . .

[Jim Becker]

A bunch of years ago I tried cutting dovetails with an, umm...less than quality saw. I didn't do it again for a couple more years and until after I bought my Adria dovetail saw from http://ToolsForWorkingWood.com. Night and day. A good saw is a joy to use, whether it's a new tool or a reconditioned old saw with a proper sharpen and set. Another option is to go with a Japanese style pull saw...decent ones are available for a little less than the better western saws.

A "good saw" (meaning one set up to work well, not necessarily expensive) will not fight you, meaning you can concentrate on making your cut accurately. Very important. I don't hand cut dovetails very often, but when I choose to do so, I know I can do it. I also use the saw for a lot of other things...and enjoy it.

[James Mittlefehldt]

One other consideration you might think about is the Pax saws that are sold by Lee Valley, or the Spears and JAckson saws sold I think by Woodcraft, they aren't what I call cheap, but they will do the job and are less than the high end ones.

Personally when I grow up I want a Wenzloff but that will have to wait a bit.

[Ken Bryant]

Of the high end saws, my (limited) experience would propel me to Wenzloff or Adria. While I've found LN planes to be the best planes around, LN saws are no longer, in my opinion, the best saws around.

[Mark Singer]

The Wenzoff saws are beautiful! On the lower price side of things a Tashiro qeen dovetail is a top value. It cuts straight and is easy to use.

[George Springer]

I second the recommendation of the Adria saws. I too grew up using dull saws, I just didn't know it at the time. It is an awakening when youj use one that is sharp, not to mention straight. There are a number of excellant sawmakers that hang out on Woodnet.net and here as well. I've got a Tim Hoff dovetail saw and stair saw that cut hardwood like butter and an Adria small tenon saw that is just as good. I picked up a pair of LN straight handled saws, rip and cross cut that work well but I don't like the straight handles, the price was right however and I'll use them at some point in time. That said saws become the same slippery slope as planes, scrapers and chisels so be careful. I just placed an order for a pair of Wenzloff half backs yesterday so be forewarned the slope is not only slippery but steep!

GS

[Gary Curtis]

If you don't feel as if you're going astray, look at the latest Fine Woodworking issue. It ranks all the Japanese dovetail and tenon saws. The second rated item costs $36, and it is sold at Rockler.

Pay attention to whether the teeth are angled for ripcuts or crosscut. Dovetail blades are tailor made for crosscut. Tenon for rip cuts. Or, do I have that backwards.

Somebody verify this, please.

Gary Curtis

[Dan Forman]

Gary--- yup, you have it backwards, wait, actually, you do both rip and crosscut for either, but mainly rip for dovetail. For tenons, cutting the cheeks is a rip, the shoulders is crosscut.

Greg---The differences is saws basically come down to two things, comfortable handles and well sharpened and set blades. Any of the cheaper saws can be made to work well with proper set up. A vintage saw will generally need setup too, but the handles are usually quite comfortable, especially those from the 1920's or earlier. Then there is the history thing too. If you can find one that has already been freshly sharpened, that's the route I'd go, until you can afford a premium new one.

If you search this forum, you will find plenty of info on assembling a set of usable handtools. Of course, you will get a wide variety of opinions as to whether to go new or used, but more agreement on what is useful. I think you are going to be busy for a while.

Dan

[Randall Houghton]

Greg
For a first saw to decide if this is for you I'd suggest a Crown Tools gents style saw. About 10" long and available for about $20. I purchased mine from Woodcraft several years ago. If you like cutting dovetails by hand you can always move up later and if you don't it can be used as a utility saw around the shop.
Regards
Randy