Powermatic Disappointment - rant

[John Schreiber]

The problem isn't whether the equipment is made overseas, or in North America, the problem is quality control, and price.

For a company to have high quality control standards, they have to be able to recover those costs through the sale of the equipment. This seems to be something North Americans have forgotten, we expect to have top quality equipment, without paying for it.

I agree with Rod. We want to have our cake and eat it too. <Rant>

I have a friend who worked with "communist" China on jet engines for commercial aircraft. There is no quality problem there. The Chinese can make products of the highest quality. The problem with the Chinese products we buy is that the companies we buy from spec low levels of quality so that they can make money selling to us. I also know people who have worked in Chinese industry on custom titanium bicycles for the American market and premium beer for the Chinese market.

There's no such thing as off-shore junk. Junk can come from anywhere; as can quality. We get what we are asking for when we make purchase decisions based on price instead of quality. Except for when we demand new products built like the "old arn," we will get equipment which is on the edge of price and quality.

Part of my point is to make it clear that the solution is with us. Where we demand quality and are willing to pay for it, we will get it.

</rant>

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I think John hit the nail on the head.

We recently investigated China's ability to fabricated large high precision electromagnets. A US deligation of engineers visited the Chinese facilities and were seriously impressed with their capabilities which were believed to possibly be superior to vendors in the US.

It should be understood that as the US manufacturing base continues to decay, US companies are looking to China for all their fabrication needs. Along with the need for China's fabrication services, US high technology companies are also providing China with key technologies.

As far as Powermatic is concerned, they appear to be now exploiting the Powermatic name to sell lower quality tools at a higher profit margin. A previous thread on their new variable speed drill press shared similar quality concerns. This near sighted philosophy will hurt both them and us. But the short term CEO will probably probably be rewarded with enough money to buy 500 new Felder sliders.

-Jeff

[Frank Snyder]

I've read posts regarding PM's lackluster customer service, but I've also read similar posts dealing with other manufacturers as well. A lot of times, it really is just that other person at the end of the phone who represents that company, and ultimately, your opinion of that company. If they're courteous and helpful, you'll think its the best company ever. If they've had a bad day and you're both frustrated, then you'll think that this is the worst company to deal with and you'll want to slander them. Talking to the right person at that company often circumvents a lot of these rants, which unfortunately, can only be learned by having to go through these "ropes" to figure that out. PM is not unique in this regard.

Personally, when PM suggested returning or exchanging this mortiser for a new one through Amazon, that would've been my first choice. It is the easiest route to take. Trial and error troubleshooting will eat a lot of time for you and that company, and your patience will be tested.

As far as Powermatic is concerned, they appear to be now exploiting the Powermatic name to sell lower quality tools at a higher profit margin. A previous thread on their new variable speed drill press shared similar quality concerns. This near sighted philosophy will hurt both them and us. But the short term CEO will probably probably be rewarded with enough money to buy 500 new Felder sliders.

Jeff - I was the guy who posted the review on PM's new VS drill press. As I stated in my review...it was really just based on my initial impressions, and not on a thorough or exhaustive evaluation. It does work as advertised. It's just not as "nice" in terms of fit and finish which I would've expected for something at this price point. I'm still in the process of giving it a fair evaluation and I will update that review in the near future.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Frank...my apologies. Perhaps I overstated the concerns regarding your drill press. But I will say that I'm seeing a trend on this and other forums about Powermatic and Delta products.

It's funny that many years ago in the 1980s, when I began being a serious woodworker hobbyist, I could not affort Powermatic, Delta or General. Instead, I bought the import clones or Sears stuff. Now that I can afford better quality, it seems that once again I'm looking at the imports! Go figure.

I look forward to hearing a follow-up on your drill press. I'm tired of black fingers when changing speeds on my old drill press.

cheers, Jeff

[Frank Snyder]

Jeff - No need to apologize...I just wanted to make sure that readers didn't assume that "initial impressions" meant "conclusive findings". I was ready to return it after the first day just because it didn't "feel" quite like I had expected it to and my bad for buying something sight unseen (try before you buy folks...or at least kick the tires a few times). It's actually starting to grow on me a bit (as ugly as it is) and other than the stiff table height operation and the collar-type depth adustment, I think I that is a decent drill press. Overpriced, but still decent. I need to spend more time using it before I'll make any "conclusive findings".

If you want to own American-made woodworking tools, there's always "old iron" for sale out there. If you want brand new American-made, Northfield is still churning out iron. And if you thought Felders were expensive...

[Ted Miller]

Since I deal with customer sevice with many vendors daily I make sure to be nice and just want to deal with the problem and get it fixed. I know it is not the fault of the C/S person on the other end of the phone and I can tell in 2 seconds how their day is going by how they answer their line. If their day is bad then I talk about weather or what ever comes to mind besides the problem. Its rare that in the last 20 years I did not get the problem taken care of. Main thing to remember with online orders is never I mean never discard the boxes or crates til you have the item up and running, you may just have to repackage and ship the item back. This one thing saves a lot of headaches having the original packaging especially if the product has concealed damage...

[paul aubin]

I have to Admit that there is a box on my front steps almost daily from amazon and any time i have had an issue with a produc the return policy and resolution has been superb. I am always a fan of replacing a defective product vs repair. I actually ignore the section of most manuals that say if you have an issue please contact the manufacturer and do not return to the store. well i always return to the store.
Having said that most of my large stationary tools were purchased and picked up locally . (dust collector is the only mail order tool). Now when it comes to commodity products price rules for me. and i have no loyalty to the local borg. We even buy groceries on Amazon as the price is great and i do not need to lug them from the store to the house.

On the quality note I have a mostly Delta Shop Unisaw ( made in USA older version ), Band Saw, Jointer, Dust collector ect. I was at the local tool dealer a bit back looking at a stationary planer (have a lunch box now) and he carries Delta, Jet, Powermatic and the related brands. The owner was steering me away from the Delta products since getting service since the B &D takeover in his words has been lousy.

I still need a planer but am sterring away from Delta right now. I even have Amazon up in another window right now trying to decide between the Delta and Jet Air cleaner Jet will most likely win unless i decide to build one. LOML says to buy one so i can get some more houshold projects done

Shop time is short with a fulltime job 3 1/2 year old girl and 18 month old boy.

/paul

[Pete Brown]

If you are talking about the triangle delta air cleaner, don't bother. No offense intended to anyone who has one, but it is crap. I bought one locally, tried it out, and then returned it. I now have a Jet air cleaner.

There are some other air cleaners that look better than the jet. I don't recall the brand, but they advertise in the magazines.

Pete

[Paul Canaris]

The problem isn't whether the equipment is made overseas, or in North America, the problem is quality control, and price.

Right on the money. My Fein cordless drill is made in China, it is the best I have owned to date and that includes Pansonics, Hitachi's and Dewalts. So it is possible to get quality goods made in China, it's a funtion of the effort the manufacturer puts into QA, parts sources and of course price.

[paul aubin]

Pete

No on the triangle one am leaning toward this one
Jet 708620B AFS-1000B 550/702/1044 CFM 3 Speed Air Filtration System with Remote and Electrostatic Pre-Filter

List Price: $301.00 Price: $229.99 FREE SHIPPING You Save: $71.01 (24%)
The JDS look nice as well but this one has a remote and timer and the filters seem to be reasonably priced. I still want to build one but my wife is right I need to get to some of the more valued projects 1st

Sorry about the Hijack

[Scott Neblung]

Steve-

Not always true. In my case my Delta 15" planer was leaking oil like an old '73Chevelle and they didnt want anything to do with it. Delta was paying them quite handsomely to come out and do it too I might add since it was warranty work.

I learned their stance from their competitor who traveled 2x's further to come do it. That incident alone left a bad taste in my mouth...

All I can say is . . . BUY LOCAL . . . Been there, got a T-Shirt . . .

A local dealer can always resolve your problem . . . .

Steve

[Pete Brown]

No on the triangle one am leaning toward this one
Jet 708620B AFS-1000B 550/702/1044 CFM 3 Speed Air Filtration System with Remote and Electrostatic Pre-Filter

List Price: $301.00 Price: $229.99 FREE SHIPPING You Save: $71.01 (24%)
The JDS look nice as well but this one has a remote and timer and the filters seem to be reasonably priced. I still want to build one but my wife is right I need to get to some of the more valued projects 1st

That's the DC I own. It's pretty good, but I wish I could use regular filters on it. The local box stores don't carry 12x24 3m furnace filters (the good ones). I have used 2 12" filters and crammed them in there, but they're a bit too large in all dimensions. So I have to get the ones from Jet.

I even used that air filter when the drywallers were in my kitchen. My expectations were low, but it did a decent job getting the airborne dust out of there.

The JDS is what I was thinking of. The magazine reviews put that above the JET, IIRC.

Pete

[paul aubin]

Pete

I buy all my filters here http://filtera.stores.yahoo.net/ the builder used some odd sizes on my returns. Shipping is only a $1 and no sales tax depending on what Merv level you want they have the 12 x 24 3m filters starting at 4.50 with a min purchase of 6



Paul

[Pete Brown]

I buy all my filters here http://filtera.stores.yahoo.net/ the builder used some odd sizes on my returns. Shipping is only a $1 and no sales tax depending on what Merv level you want they have the 12 x 24 3m filters starting at 4.50 with a min purchase of 6
Paul

Thanks Paul, that's a good find.

Pete