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Thread: Borg - frustrating experiences (long)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Borg - frustrating experiences (long)

    Hello,
    I know this is preaching to the choir, but I have to get it off my chest.

    With any luck, maybe someone from Home Depot and/or Lowes will stumble on it and do something to correct the situation.
    As a “newbie” to woodworking, at the tender age of 54, I find it’s difficult enough to learn all the right things, but the process is actually hampered by bad merchandise and bad advice.

    Lowes – I was in the market for a portable table saw. I narrowed the choice down to about 3. On the advice of the salesperson at Lowes, I bought the Hitachi “jobsite” model for $199.99. While it’s quite a step up from my 20 year old promotional $89.00 (at the time) Builder’s Square table saw, it has one enormous flaw.
    The miter slot is not industry standard ¾”. This makes finding even the most basic accessories difficult, if not impossible. The aggravation factor alone is worth the difference in price between the Hitachi and the DeWalt – which was also one I considered. The deciding factor came down to the features on the Hitachi as pointed out by the gentleman working in the tool department.
    Having worked for one of the Big Boxes myself at one time, I can’t fault the salesman. I really blame Hitachi for it, as well as myself, for not researching it further.
    I do blame Lowes somewhat though for not advertising the fact that the saw will not accept common ¾” accessories, or at least put some pressure on Hitachi to change it.

    Home Depot – This past Friday evening I had to take the seats out of my Odyssey to make room for 4X8 sheets of plywood and beadboard. While it sounds fairly trivial, the seats are fairly heavy and awkward to remove. The near zero temperatures and the 50 foot walk through the snow in the driveway compounded the misery. I planned it for Friday evening since my son and grandson were coming over. That meant my son could give me hand getting the goods out of the van and into the house. Off to Home Depot we went. I managed to find 2 sheet of ¾” Birch plywood that weren’t too damaged to use.

    The problem came with the beadboard. I need 3 sheets of 15/32” either Pine or Birch.
    There were 4 sheets of each left on the shelf. The edges were destroyed, they were severely warped and they had water stains. I’m not exaggerating at all how pathetic these pieces were. They were not saleable merchandise, they were scrap.
    While I don’t expect to find true cabinet grade goods, I do expect to find something that’s useable. I guess my question here is why do lumber sales fall into some different category than anything else? Had these been hamburgers at McDonalds that were in similar condition, I doubt if the CEO of home Depot would have silently bought them.

    Round 2 started when I asked one of the workers if he could get one of the unbroken bundles down so I could buy 3 sheets of beadboard. He point out that there were 4 sheets on the shelf and offer to help me load it on the cart. When I pointed out their condition, he offered to discount each sheet 10%. I asked him if he would buy them himself. He kind of smiled and said no. He then explained that it was company policy…
    Needless to say, it’s Sunday and I’m still without beadboard.
    Personally, I would be embarrassed to have something that belongs in a landfill, sitting on the shelf of a store I owned, as saleable goods. Those 3 pathetic pieces of beadboard and their polices simply cost them close to $1900.00 is sales. Probably more since I doubt if I’ll go out of my way to shop there anymore.

    What’s worse though is that I’m also very discouraged about woodworking in general.
    I mentioned earlier that I was 54. I’m at the age where I’m thinking ahead for retirement.
    Woodworking is one thing that I always had an interest in learning. My long term plan is (was?) to begin assembling the tools now while I’m working, in anticipation of having the free time in a few years to devote a lot of attention to making things and/or fixing up things.

    You all here at SMC have been great answering questions and steering me in the right directions. I’m sure I’ll never be able to produce anything near the quality of some of the items I’ve seen posted here. I’m pretty realistic. The Almighty blessed some people as craftsmen, and I’m not one of them. Still, I enjoy it, and despite all the roadblocks, I’ll probably continue pursuing it. Maybe not with quite the gusto, unless Lowes and Home Depot can somehow clean up their acts. I can understand though why the nickname “borg” applies to these places.

    Thanks for also listening to my rant.

    Rich

  2. #2
    Rich, I completely understand your frustration. However, don't give up on a great craft because the big box stores have corrupted the industry with their tactics. My advice would be to stick with it, & find stores that cater to woodworkers, both the hobbiest & the professional. These stores are out there in your area - you just need to do some digging to find them. Once you find them, you'll discover they're usually staffed with people passionate about the craft, & willing to share their knowledge. You may also want to look into taking classes offered by a community college. Just put yourself in a position of being around folks in the know, & whatever you do, stay away from the boxes unless absolutely necessary!

    Greg

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    central iowa
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    Rich, I'm going to bless you with my discovery and it will change your outlook. Don't ever trust the word of the big box employee. It is frustrating trying to be frugal. There is another place you can go that would treat you better and it would cost more? Or demand to talk to the lowes manager and waste your time doing that. My shopping experiences have sucked too. I mail order everything I can because of it. My neighbor gets everything he needs to trim a house delivered to the job site and from what I've seen, it is all better quality that what I get at the crappy stores, but he isn't worried about the cost. I think sometimes you have to go that way just for sanity.

  4. #4
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    Feb 2003
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    Mtl, Canada
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    Rich,
    I have had similar experiences in Borg style stores here in Quebec. Whenever I get bad/conflicting advice from a borg employee I remind myself they need no special knowledge to work there and are paid accordingly. But in your case maybe you should have located the manager, explained the problem and got them to undo a new bundle. As for losing sales I think borg stores are not very concerned about it.
    Last edited by Chuck Wintle; 02-04-2007 at 9:49 AM.

  5. #5
    Rich
    Dont get discoureged about woodworking no one here either thing highly of the Borgs when it comes to woodworking . It can be very relaxing and rewarding, I myself I am looking forward when I retire to do it full time. If you want quality lumber for your projects than lumberyards or specialty wood suppliers is a good source ask here and I am sure somene will direct you to one. With regarding HomeDepot, you should have gone to the manager ( I dont if you did that or not) and demanded to bring down the new bundel. Again, my advice is stick with your desire. Woodworking is very fun and rewarding___ be safe
    Jeremy

  6. #6
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    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fallbrook, California
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    3,562

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Engelhardt
    ...Woodworking is one thing that I always had an interest in learning. My long term plan is (was?) to begin assembling the tools now while I’m working, in anticipation of having the free time in a few years to devote a lot of attention to making things and/or fixing up things...

    Rich
    Rich, I share your frustration with the Borg stores, but I sure hope that you don't give up on your retirement "dream" because of them. I too am in the same position as you are, but even a little closer to retirement (1 1/2 school years to go, but who's counting ), and have decided to get back into woodworking after being away from it for about twenty years. I miss the local lumber yards that catered to people like us. There are some still out there but they are not as easy to find and get to as they once were. Hang in there. I'm sure as you start exploring your area you'll find some better places to find quality materials.

    I sure hope that you decide to send the information included in your rant to those to HomeDepot for their policy on wood in the racks. Send a copy to the manager of your local store and send copies to anyone and everyone within the corporation that you can get a name and address for. If people like you don't complain they won't change their policy on stocking the racks. I've discovered over the years that bysending letters to a lot of people in a corporation or government can make a difference. Usually they all end up on one person's desk with notes to "take care of it." I hope it's "legal" to give you this link http://corporate.homedepot.com/wps/portal/Leadership to the Home Depot execs.
    Last edited by Don Bullock; 02-04-2007 at 10:10 AM.
    Don Bullock
    Woebgon Bassets
    AKC Championss

    The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.
    -- Edward John Phelps

  7. #7
    Rich,

    Go take a couple WW classes at one of the Woodcraft stores or at a local tech school. I will guarantee this will reinvigorate your interest. To see real professionals and their passion is very contagious.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Calgary Alberta
    Posts
    33
    Rich, recalling those emortal words: "it's not what you know, but sometimes who you know that counts".

    I like you, have been late to get into the wood working experience. My earlier years in the construction business, plumbing to be exact, taught me that while the big box stores have lots of items cheaper than wholesalers sell for - cheaper isn't always better.

    Since getting into wood working I have frequented the local hardwood supplier, the local plywood wholesaler, and yes I have even sought out several local wood mills. I have never been shy taking them some Tim Horton donuts (Canadian coffee shop tradition) to these shops just before they have a morning coffee break! The lads remember me and are only to willing to help out when I have a stupid question or need an extra special board(s) for that right project. I am patient and let them serve the trades guys first, then cherish the time they can take to help me out.

    Building up these contacts over the last 5 years have helped me to buy quality wood and I have never had to suffer the frustration you have felt recently at the big box stores.

    Do I buy some wood working supplies at the big box stores? Sure I do, things such as brushes, screws and such - but almost never wood!

    On larger tool purchases I will frequent those stores that specialize in tools. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that even my local hardwood supply store has moved into the better established brand tool names - so I am buying my bigger ticket tool items from them in addition to quality hardwood. Turns out they appreicate my business and have given me a small, but appreicated, trade discount based on my repeat business.

    Part of the learning and enjoyment I have experienced in wood working is finding those specialized trade stores that can help me to find better wood, quality machines and put me in touch with some wother wood workers in a similar situation to my own.

    Sometimes its not what you know, but who you know ....

    Bob

  9. #9
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    Oct 2006
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    Mid Michigan
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    I agree with all of the above. I have found that it is cheaper to purchase lumber from lumber companies that cater to the woodworkers. The up front cost is generally not cheaper but the poor quality and lack of material will be more than off set by quality. To get the quality lumber you will have to do some local research. Many cabinet builders in my area drive around 100 miles one way to get the consistent quality material that they need to build their cabinets.
    My local HD sells Red Oak, the quality is not that great and I have to spend a lot of time searching for material that is not scrap. I have visited the HD at least 4 times over the past 2 months looking for Red Oak and they have not replenished their stock in that length of time. Even the scrap has been purchased. I can not believe how many times I have found numerous items in HD that have not been restocked.
    We are getting a Menard's in our area that will open before too long. I have not heard how they cater to wood workers. Hope it is better than the HD. Maybe HD will get the message when their business drops off a bunch.
    David B

  10. #10
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    Dec 2003
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    Putnam County, NY
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    Home Depot and to a lesser extent in my area Lowes seem to have more damaged or incomplete goods on the shelf than intact merchandise. I really try to avoid shopping there if I can. There seems to be no incentive for improving the rough handling of goods since they are able to charge back their vendors for most of it. They even charge back vendors for the lawn mowers and other equipment that people buy, and then use for a job or season and return. I can't see their business model living forever.
    Rant over.
    I could cry for the time I've wasted, but thats a waste of time and tears.

  11. #11
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    Oct 2006
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    New Jersey
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    A couple things happened here. First you found out that the big box stores are not the best place to buy equipment or material. But with that said to your material problem that is not neither Home Depots policy or Lowes policy to sell everything that is on the shelf first. You talked to a person that has no idea of store policy I guarentee it. Second what you should have said was you wanted 10 sheets of beadboard and then he would have had no choice. He probably did not know how to run the forklift so he hoped you would go away and he won. There is a 1-800 number you can call and you can tell the person of any complaints and they will be straightened out right there. The number and picture of the guy is pasted all around the store and mostly up front where the registers are. Any emplyee of either store does not want their name associated with this guy.

    Next time you are in the market for a tool of signofigance such as a table top saw please stop by here or any other forum and ask questions and do some homework. This is how you learn about tools. Now of course we all have our favorites but you will get ideas and choices and usually if a product has flaws they will show up in the reviews. Welcome to the world of woodworking and these problems are not your last so do not get frustrated just learn from them.
    John T.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    I had a similar experience with some 1/4" oak veneer plywood from Menards. I dug deep into the bunk to find 2 flat ones and bought them. After 5 days in my climate controlled shop, they wer so warped, bowed, cupped, twisted, et al that they wouldn't even make a good liner for a doghouse.

    After a trip to a privately owned lumberyard that caters to contractors, I walked out with a $35 piece of oak veneer ply, and after 3 weeks in my shop is still as flat and true as the day I bought it.

    I learned that you don't save money buying inexpensive materials, you only spend less money. It's like in the old days of cameras that used 35mm film. People would spend thousands of dollars on a body, lenses, filters, flashes, etc. then complain about film costing $5 a roll.

    P-poor material is also a great safety hazard. Try ripping a piece of warped, misshapen ply on your monster table saw for a scare.

    Needless to say, if the material is less than perfect, I won't buy it. I take my business elsewhere and support quality suppliers.
    Kyle in K'zoo
    Screws are kinda like knots, if you can't use the right one, use lots of 'em.
    The greatest tragedy in life is the gruesome murder of a beautiful theory by a brutal gang of facts.

  13. #13
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    Kyle,
    A friend of mine is a cabinet maker. He makes the trip from Clare MI, (30 miles North of Mount Pleasant) to a lumber supplier in Charlotte, MI every time he gets the materials list for a new job. Don't know the name of the supplier but they are supposed to be excellent. He uses an eight ply for his drawer sides. I doubt that there are any local suppliers that carry it.
    I am not sure of the mileage but it is quite a trip with fuel prices the way they are.
    David B

  14. #14
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Collin County Texas
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    Hello Rich. Boy, it sure looks like things have gone to pot since I left Akron 27 years ago.

    First thing to learn is that the Borg does not carry quality plywood, and their hardwoods are not much better. Say it over and over again until you can drive by the borg without stopping.

    The last I bought from the local orange box had the plys bubbling up along the edges with in one week. I am, for one, getting tired of the crap coming out of China and be foisted off as plywood. I even went to a respected hardwood store in Dallas this last week for for 'shop grade' plywood and it was made in China. It is a notch above the garbage at the borg, but not much.

    So what are you to do? Find yourself a good lumber yard that sells quality wood. They are around, it is just a matter of talking to fellow woodworkers until you get a consensus. Give John Hart a PM, or Email, he should have some recommendations. Keep an eye out for others posting here that live in the NE Ohio area. You might even stop by Homestead Finishing and visit with Jeff Jewitt, he will have some good ideas.

    As said above, take a class or two at Woodcraft, or at Rockler. Look up a WW club in the area and attend a couple meetings.

    Don't slam the door before you have experienced what is going on inside. This is not an apple barrel, and one bad experience doesn't ruin the hobby.
    Best Regards, Ken

  15. #15
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    Rich....been there...done that...didn't buy the t-shirt as it was too ragged!.........One of our local lumber yards has the same attitude. I went there on a Sunday to buy materials. They started to load me up...I said....I'm going to high grade the stuff....the stuff they were trying to load into my pickup was warped.....had huge deficits......they said company policy prevented me from doing that......I told them my personal policy prevented them from buying or using defective materials. I took my receipt back inside....expressed my displeasure....the clerk repeated company policy of "No highgrading"......I got my money back.....I haven't been back since....
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

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