Retail Hardwood Rant

[Joe Jensen]

Sorry, I need to vent.

I usually buy my hardwoods and plywoods at a large lumber yard. The large yards (Spellman Hardwoods and American Hardwoods) have great quality for american hardwoods and plywoods, but they are 30 - 60 minutes away and only open for business hours. Unfortunately sometimes I need "just one more piece" to finish a project. There are a couple of "retail" wood stores in my area. One, Woodworkers Source, has tons of exotic hardwoods, and a good selection of plywoods. But, there are two huge issues in dealing with them.

1) The plywoods and american hardwoods are of very low quality. The wood isn't very dry, it's not straight, and there are lots of splits and cracks. Seriously, this stuff might be the material commercial shops return to their suppliers. I don't know where they get such bad material. The plywood warps badly within a day or two, must be wet as well.

2) Woodworkers Source rounds up when measuring the hardwood. Let me explain. When I buy 100 bd ft or more at one of the large hardwood yards. They take a "stick" (special ruler for measuring hardwood that has a table printed on it to show bd ft by width and length). They find the narrowest part of the board, and measure the width there. Then they take the nominal lenth, and use the scale on the "stick" to find the bd ft. By nominal length, I mean say a board is supposed to be 8 ft long. Usually it's cut a little long at the mill, maybe 100" instead of 96", but the large hardood yards call it 8 ft. Woodworkers Source measures the widest part of the board, and rounds up to the next highest 1/4", and then they measure the length at the longest part of the board and round up to the next highest 1/4". Since the quality is so low the ends are usually split for the first 3-4" in on each end. Their lumber is not S4S, so the sides are rough, not straight, and there are usually splits there too. On top of all this, they charge 50-70% more per bd ft than the large yards. If the wood were top quality stuff, paying a huge markup and the 5% or so extra for their rounding up would be ok.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for new woodworkers who don't know better.

I recently found a small private hardwood yard about 20 minutes away. really nice guy, really nice stock, and his prices are the same as the big yards. This place is Chandler Hardwoods near the Chandler Airport in Chandler AZ. Highly recommended. I just bough two pieces of maple from them. By my measuring, it should have been about 21 bd ft. They charges me for 18. If I measured the way Woodworkers Source does, it would have been 25 bd ft. The price per bd ft was less than 1/2 of what Woodworkers Source charges.

If you are buying at Woodworkers Source, take a drive over to this other yard and see what you have been missing.

[Robert Waddell]

Joe,
I totally understand your rant. I had to fire off a letter to one of my suppliers the other day. I ordered Maple, Cherry and Walnut. Truck showed up with Maple and Cherry but no Walnut. The walnut was back ordered. The bill was for almost 1.5x what I ordered on the maple. The cherry was a few bdft short. I accepted it cause I can always use more maple. They also charged me sales tax eventhough I have a tax exempt account. I called them and they said they wouldn't charge the tax when they ran the card. Last time I checked the cc they had charged me the tax and hadn't issued a credit. Well if all this wasn't bad enough, I decided to check the tally on the maple and cherry. Well the maple was short 19% and the cherry was short 14%. So the letter was to inform them that this was not acceptable. If I should get audited with these numbers added to my normal wood waste, flags would fly. My letter went out about two weeks ago, do you think I have heard from them? No! Can you say "new supplier".
Rob

[Alan Greene]

Joe,
I now buy the majority of my lumber at Chandler Hardwoods. I can second your opinion on their quality and price. Their customer service is also great. The fact that it is only 10 minutes from the house helps a lot too.

Joe, not to hijack your thread, are you a member of the Arizona Association of Fine Woodworkers? They are a great group of woodworkers here in the Phoenix area. If you want more info, or their website PM me.

[Paul Wingert]

2) Woodworkers Source rounds up when measuring the hardwood. Let me explain. When I buy 100 bd ft or more at one of the large hardwood yards. .

I went to one place that multiplied the total board foot by something like 10-20% to account for "kiln shrinkage". LOL. I only needed two pieces, so I just paid and never went back.

I really like deceptive tactics like that. If they want to charge 10-20% more per board foot, they should just up their price accordingly so that the customer knows what they are paying for.

[Paul Zonneveld]

I know I for one really appreciate the information. I have purchased some lumber at woodworkers source in the past and as you said Joe at the time I just did not know any better. I have several projects on the books for the beginning of this year and will be looking at Chandler Hardwoods. I have also heard about Timber woodworking and Machinery in Mesa. Anyone in Phoenix know much about them? I have been there before, but have not purchased any lumber there yet. I had planned on going there, but will now look into Chandler.

Thanks for the Info

[Joe Jensen]

I have also heard about Timber woodworking and Machinery in Mesa. Anyone in Phoenix know much about them? I have been there before, but have not purchased any lumber there yet. I had planned on going there, but will now look into Chandler.

Thanks for the Info

I've used Timber as well. I bought enough red oak a couple of years ago from them to build 56 kitchen cabinet doors. The quality at that time was better than I could find a the large commercial yards. You can sort through the pile to pick what you want, and the pricing is competitive, but the quality and inventory are hit or miss. From now on, I'll start at Chandler Hardwoods, and go elsewhere when I can find what I need from them...joe

[glenn bradley]

I hope someone will clarify if I have been told wrong. If 4/4 lumber has bee surfaced-one-side, it will be under 4/4 and sold as 4/4. Have I been misinformed?

Joe, this may be the deal at the yard you're going to. Even given that I would think the extra time to pick-through and fool around with folks that run their business as you describe would cover the run to your known source. Except for the hours of operation of course; my local yards are a short day Staurday and no Sunday - PITA.

P.s. My signiture is not directed at you, it's just a Joe Walsh quote I find amusing.

[Paul Canaris]

A recent supplier I tried in Austin, TX meaures the widest end of the board and calculates from there. They all just seem to do what they want to. Your are doing the right thing, vote with your pocket book and give your business to someone who cares enough to earn it.

[Tom Jones III]

Both suppliers I use are good, at Clarks Hardwood I load the lumber into my truck then get someone to measure it and write up a ticket. I always simply select the lumber and put it into the truck without trying to stack small ends/big ends, just randomly stack it in the truck. They always come out and measure all the ends sticking out over the tailgate and write the ticket. On several occasions, to test them, I have carefully measured each board taking quite a bit of time to accurately measure board feet before they wrote the ticket. Every time they were close to my calculation but they were always a little lower than what I considered to be a strict and fair measurement. BTW, they never knew I did the measurements beforehand.

Houston Hardwoods is exactly the same except you load the wood onto a cart where it is measured, you pay, then load it into your truck. Every time I have tested them they came out a little under what I considered correct.

[Jim King]

As I make a living selling lumber I can add a bit here.

Professional lumber buyers measure from the narrowest part of the board and not the widest and the same goes for logs . Same goes for thickness. Also if a crack is short they measure from where the crack stops and if the crack is long they recut to a narrower size.

As for the 4/4 question I produce lumber especially for hobby guys like many of you and the measurement I use is actual. This market is for actual size kiln dried , S4S and cut to width.

(Non comercial -hobby wood) dimensions are for example for a 1 x 4 x 96 inch board exactly that and if it was a kiln dried comercial 1 x 4 x 96 it would actually be 3/4 x 3 1/2 by 96 inches.

The statement about kiln loss does not fly as the lumber is sawn by the mill to adjust to the shrinkage and provide a dry full rough 4/4 or whatever dimension it is to be sold at.

Hope I helped and didnt make it more confusing.

[Dave Lehnert]

File a complaint with the department of weights and measures. I run a retail garden center and sell the little bundles of fire wood and they check to make sure each bundle has exactly the amount that is stated on the tag. I would think rounding up would not be allowed. The deli at the store can’t round up lunch meat to the next pound. Why would lumber be any different?

[James Carmichael]

The statement about kiln loss does not fly as the lumber is sawn by the mill to adjust to the shrinkage and provide a dry full rough 4/4 or whatever dimension it is to be sold at.
.

With the exception of some rough 4/4 birch I bought last year from Austin Hardwoods, I have yet to see rough 4/4 lumber that was actually 1" thick, it's usually around 15/16". Rough 8/4 stock I find around here is usually 2 - 2 1/8" thick.

I buy most of my wood from Austin or Hogan Hardwoods here in N. TX. I can't remember how Austin measures BF, but I've never agreed with their measurements, they always seem to come out on the pudgy side. But their prices and selection are great, so I live with it.

I thought USDA had a standard for measuring BF?. It's like buying gas and every station has a different "gallon".

[Jake Helmboldt]

I've got the same problem with a local supplier in Richmond, VA (the only game in town other than Woodcraft). They charge full bd/ft prices for cutoff scraps and even round up then. I got a 16" piece of 6/4 walnut from their cutoff bin and when I looked at my receipt he had charged me for 2 bd ft. Add to that their prices are exorbinant. They charge ~$12/BF for poorly figured 4/4 birdseye maple and almost $6/BF for plain 4/4 maple.

I'll now be driving the 60 minutes to a place that has much better pricing and saving money in the long run. I just won't be able to stop and get something on a whim anymore.

JH

[Joe Jensen]

I hope someone will clarify if I have been told wrong. If 4/4 lumber has bee surfaced-one-side, it will be under 4/4 and sold as 4/4. Have I been misinformed?

Joe, this may be the deal at the yard you're going to. Even given that I would think the extra time to pick-through and fool around with folks that run their business as you describe would cover the run to your known source. Except for the hours of operation of course; my local yards are a short day Staurday and no Sunday - PITA.

P.s. My signiture is not directed at you, it's just a Joe Walsh quote I find amusing.

Glen, I hadn't been commenting at all on thickness. 4/4 to my understanding means it was cut wet at 1". Likely slightly smaller when dry, but usually at least 15/16" when I buy. If the wood is surfaced to 3/4", all places I've purchased from charge for 4/4 for anything under 4/4". But, I've never seen rough cut wood under 4/4", that might be different...joe

[jim gossage]

i shop at atlanta hardwoods from time to time. the first time i shopped there i noticed that i was charged a bit more than i had calculate for many pieces. then i noticed that the price guide said "add back into BF calculation 7% for kiln shrinkage and 11% if material has been straight line ripped". seems like a stupid way to do it but the prices and board quality are otherwise pretty good.