Any comments on A4dable engravers

[Larry Bratton]

Carol:
We better get back on topic here or the StuntEngraver will be on our case. Norman is probably safe as long as you don't move to China

[Rob Bosworth]

Ralph, how can you say "All you can bet is that 99% of the lasers would last at least 3 months" ? Is there any data that backs up that point? From what has been reported on many of these forums, we have not heard anyone getting 3 months on their lasers. From the sounds of the reports, the owner's of these machines get pretty good at swapping out their lasers.

If anyone has had one of these Chinese laser engraving systems longer than 3 months, we would love to hear what your experience has been. Anyone have one for at least a year, and use it?

[Ralph Lindberg]

Ralph, how can you say "All you can bet is that 99% of the lasers would last at least 3 months" ? Is there any data that backs up that point? ...

In general, yes, it's called the WPFR (Warranty Period Failure Rate), any company that wants to survive wants to keep the failures in this period as low as is economically possible. Most companies set their warranties, based on a failure rate of 1% (or less) during the warranty period (yes, this is a field I've worked in).

Recall that anything that fails in less then 90 days, they pay for. So, if the unit was designed to have a 90 day life (in every day use), statisicly half the units would fail in less then 90 days. Which would be a cost to them of 1/2 the cost of a tube, for every unit sold.

Even if the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) was such that 10% of the units failed at the 90 day mark, they would still have to pay for those units. At a warranty cost of $30 to $40 dollars, for every unit sold. Considering the (average) net profit (all industries) is about 10% of retail, that would mean that their net profit would be cut by about 10%.

Now, this is a small firm, even the company making the tubes is not a large firm. But if they think the tube will last (at least) 90 days (under daily use), it's likely 50% mark many more days then that (not knowing the sigma of the failure curve, I couldn't guess the exact number of days).

Even if they have not done a formal statistical study, they would be working from a good seat-of-the pants feeling.

[Rob Bosworth]

Wow, Ralph. You sound like you've got an MBA. Very impressive. Sounds like text book statistics. But it also sounds like you work for this company. If I remember correctly, didn't you start this thread as someone who is looking for outside opinions, but just happened to include the thread. Very tricky. Sounds like maybe you took an advanced MBA course on Strategery.

Sorry if I am way off base, I am just a lowly laser jockey.

Here is my statistical analysis.

You buy a machine for $3,000. You play with it for a while. You go to resell it and you find out it is not worth anything.

You buy a known machine that works for $ 10,000. You play with it and make some product. You tire of it and not getting a paycheck and turn around and sell it for $7,000.

Which machine costs you more?

[Ralph Lindberg]

Wow, Ralph. You sound like you've got an MBA. Very impressive. Sounds like text book statistics. But it also sounds like you work for this company. If I remember correctly, didn't you start this thread as someone who is looking for outside opinions, but just happened to include the thread. Very tricky. Sounds like maybe you took an advanced MBA course on Strategery.

Sorry if I am way off base, I am just a lowly laser jockey.

Off base, maybe. Yes I did ask and despite the people talking about dog dishes and the people that don't understand anything about the actuall question, I have learned a little.

BTW, I do have 30 years in industry, just not this industry. Oh,ya and a BS in engineering (and most of my masters), so yes, I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to general issues with MTBF and such.

[Dave Jones]

Ralph, I could be wrong, but I think you're missing something here. From what I have seen in looking around the web at the cheap Chinese lasers, most of the Chinese companies are shipping the lasers with a spare laser tube and no warranty. The American "companies" (I suspect often one or two person outfits) are keeping the spare tube and offering a 3 month warranty on the tube shipped with the unit. They then have the spare tube to supply wor warranty repairs, or to sell as a replacement after the warranty.

My guess is they are doing no detailed analysis of failure rates. They are giving the minimum warranty they feel they can give, and are maybe hoping that most people will take a fair amount of that first 3 months just trying to figure out how to use the machine and won't rack up a lot of hours on the tube in that time.

Some of the Chinese companies are giving a short warranty, but are also giving a spare tube with the laser, so you would have to go through both tubes in the warranty period to be able to ask them for another.

This is all based on info gathered on the web and may or may not be accurate. I have never bought one of these cheap lasers. So I'm just giving my opinions and guesses.

[Ed Maloney]

Off base, maybe. Yes I did ask and despite the people talking about dog dishes and the people that don't understand anything about the actuall question, I have learned a little.

BTW, I do have 30 years in industry, just not this industry. Oh,ya and a BS in engineering (and most of my masters), so yes, I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to general issues with MTBF and such.

Soooo, Ralph, are you a woodworker looking to expand into lasers? Maybe it would help us since we don't understand the actual question if you could tell us what your planned use of the laser is.

Also - I think we can probably laser engrave something on that dog dish.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think we can probably laser engrave something on that dog dish.

Don't forget about the stereotypical bone shaped dog tag for the dog

I've bought a lot of machinery over the years. Big stuff mainly and if anyone offered me main replacement components right off the bat, I'd probably never have bought a single thing from them. That would send a signal to me, as a buyer, that they don't have faith in their product.

I know it's inexpensive, but personally, from the outside looking in, it looks like more trouble than it's worth.

But, that may just be me, as I get older.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Dave, from what I have been able to learn/figure out, this is certainly a Chinese firm (and small), but unlike some of the Chinese "firms" they 1) have a US rep and 2) have software and documentation written in English (no matter how badly).

As I noted before, sometimes these Chinese products are inexpensive, sometimes they are just cheap, knowing the difference is priceless.

Ed, I'm looking at things to expand what I do. Retirement is not far away and turning a hobby into a hobby with a small income stream has to be considered. But I know there are dozens (and hundreds) of people in my area that make wooden "things" for sale. Going head to head with people is not my idea of fun, rather I need to consider ways to seperate myself from them. Custom engraved "things" would do that. Example, would you rather spend $30 for a fancy hand turned wood pen, or $35 for a fancy hand turned wood pen, with your name engraved on it?

[Ralph Lindberg]

Yesterday (?) Dave posted a question on Rabbit Laser engravers by HXLaser (?). From studiing that web site, it appears that they may (?) be the supplier to A4dableWW.

HX Laser lists the expected tube life for what appears to be the same engraver that A4dableWW sells. They claim a 800 to 1000 hour life. Which works out to 5 to 6 man-months of continuous use. Which means that, allowing for setup time, swapping items, etc. One of these tubes should last about a year, in a continious 8 hr a day, operation. SWAG, that should mean, in a one-man shop, where you are spending lots of time doing other things. One of these tube might last two or three years

[Joe Pelonio]

The owner of US Cutter whose vinyl plotter I am running now is looking into becoming a US distributor for Chinese lasers also. I have provided him with information as to what to look for, and after researching from here and talking to his contacts in China he will be going there to look at them.

I have found that while the first plotters coming over were, frankly, crap, the ones he is selling now are every bit as good as the much more expensive name brand models.

If we think about the Japanese imports of the 60's, how bad that stuff was, but how they eventually dominated (and still do) the electronics and automobile industries here, the Chinese are trying to do the same.

With lasers they may not be at that point yet, they are becoming aware that U.S. (European and Canadian and others) consumers demand quality and durability so it's a matter of time.

I think that a hobbyist not running a laser 10 hours a day like we do in production shops may be find these current Chinese lasers to be a good investment, as long as they have software compatability and English speaking support.

Update:

I may have to look into one of these as a second machine if things keep up. I just rec'd another shipment of materials and realized that there are not enough hours in the day to get all this laser work done soon, and I barely have room for all this stuff. So much for sleep.

For the jobs I have scheduled (all 12x24 sheets):

30 sheets 1/4" flourescent pink acrylic
25 Lasermax red/white
55 black laserable ADA alternative
16 maroon "
21 white "

[Ralph Lindberg]

While I'm at it an update on this firm...

I contacted their US sales address, complaining about the poor English in the manuals, offering to help, and got a response within an hour. The US Sales rep said he knew the manuals stunk, but headquarters had control of the manuals and would have to fix them (one line was really funny, the manual talkes about etching "organic glass", musta took me 30 seconds to realize they meant lead-free glass)

I used A4dable's eBay ratings list to contact known customers that bought their units: 6 emails out, 5 responded (all positive), two are planning to buy additional units from A4dable to meet their workload.

I've also been monitoring their customer forum, I have not noticed a single complaint that did not get addressed. Almost all were initial setup and use issues. I have not seen anything (yet) about failures

[Bill Cunningham]

Well, it certainly looks like you got "results of which are the very finest" (pardon the Engrish ) I wonder what a English manual translated into Chinese would read like to a Chinese,, Probably just as funny...

[Chuck Burke]

If you crunch all of the numbers I would think that the Brand Name lasers would cost you less over the long haul.

Mike,

I have a theory when it comes to tools and equipment. DON'T BUY CHEAP TOOLS!! Period. This has proven true more often than not.......Brand Name machines are Brand Name for a reason.

Buying a laser or ANY piece of equipment with which one is going to make money, is an INVESTMENT in *my* opinion....you sure wouldn't want to have your machine break down, or not get the part in time, in the middle of a huge order.......

[Larry Bratton]

And..some of these tools that are BRAND name turn out to be CHEAP tools anyway. I'm not sure but I think the words PROFESSIONAL TOOLS should be the key. The opposite are termed CONSUMER or HOBBY. Same applies to machines. If your planning on making a living or part of your living with it, consider this advice.