RESOLVED: I was trying to avoid posting this - General jointer damaged by ???

[Bruce Benjamin]

Who's at fault or is this the complete story?
Not sure if anybody but the parties involved know the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so we post our opinions on what we know, if we needed the complete story from both parties, I'd think this would be about a one post topic.
We deal with what info we have and hope its as correct as possible.....

I don't think there's much doubt as to what the truth in this matter is. Is anyone disputing what really took place? Since the only person involved with this that has posted to this is the OP, he's the only person who would have the opportunity to tell less than the complete story. I don't see that as being the case at all.

Imho....
Should he get a new jointer? Nope..He bought a demo and that's what he should get, I see many posts talking about the company doing the right thing, but we may have forgot if he'd inspected the jointer asap and sent it back or reported it damaged he wouldn't have had to drag it down and back up the stairs, crying shame he has to go though all that though.

From what I understand, he didn't buy a, "Demo". He bought a floor model. There is a difference. And that is what he's going to get from General.

I really can't see how any of this can be viewed as Gary's fault, as you are doing. I really don't believe that anyone should be required to uncrate a machine before signing for it unless there is some signs of damage to the crate. Sometimes where just don't have the time to do that. I've received large items via truck that I only had time to briefly look over and then sign for. No damage on the outside, gotta go back to work. And I didn't think that this jointer going down the stairs was the main focal point of this whole ordeal. The main problem is with Redmond expecting Gary to rebuild this POS jointer for them piece by piece.

It sounds like once the higher ups at General found out there was a problem, they came up with appears to be a workable and fair compromise for Gary.

I think General did everything right except for the part where they are still letting Redmond dictate the details of the deal. They should've been more involved with the details since it's obvious Redmond is too lame to do it right. That being said, I think that it's great that General stepped up like they did.


I think I'd be a bit miffed at the dealer who sent it out shipped like it was, my 8" York came in two packages and were packaged so well I think they'd go though just about anything with out damage.

Bingo! This is the point to the whole thing. It's Redmond who caused this whole thing to begin with. I don't see any of this as being Gary's fault. He did what I would consider to be a reasonable inspection of the crate. If someone runs a red light and slams into my car they caused the problem. If I try to get out and aggravate a neck injury it's still entirely the other persons fault. Getting out of the car isn't an unreasonable action. Gary waiting to open the crate is the same thing, in my opinion. He didn't do anything unreasonable.

Quite the learning experience though, and I have to admit when my jointer and planer came I didn't uncrate to inspect....I will from now on though.

Do you think that every truck driver will wait while you open the crate? Do you think they will even let you? Some might but I'll bet that some won't.

I've driven for 2 companies as a delivery driver. For the most part I hauled steel and pipe. But I also delivered a lot of machinery. I didn't have the time to wait around for a customer to unpack the machinery unless there was some damage. There never was damage because I was careful. But I also wasn't required to wait around no matter what the customer thought. When I had 10 to 20 stops a day I had to keep moving if I was going to get done on time. Granted, neither companies I drove for were a contract delivery company. But the end result was the same. Contract delivery companies have the same time constraints that I had.

If a driver gives you the chance to open it, great. But don't be surprised if he doesn't.

I'm not sure if anybody will be happy at the final outcome, but it seems like a fair compromise was reached.

I sure wouldn't be happy with the final outcome if it were me. And I wouldn't think that I was being treated fairly after I received that ridiculous list of demands from Redmond. To me that would be the last straw. Pick it up and give me my money back! Gary shouldn't have to compromise. He paid them for a product that wasn't in the condition it was promised.

Hopefully all works out for ya Gary, good luck.
Thanks to the people at General for responding, always a good sign.

Al

At least we can completely agree on this one Al. I know that's going to help you sleep better at night.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

I receive palletized freight all the time. You are welcome to accept or reject a pallet. You can accept a pallet with a notation of damage. But unless prior arrangements are made or there are extenuating circumstances, trucking companies don't let you unpack merchandise before deciding if you're going to sign for it.

This has pretty much been my experience too, Phil. Whether I was in the receiving department or the one doing the delivery, "Keep it moving!" was the theme. What would the driver think if you were to unpack a crate that looks in good condition? Once it's unpacked it may be hard to repack and then what? If there's damage to the crate then they could either allow you to refuse the order based on that or they may allow you to unpack it partially. But unpacking every crate you get regardless of it's condition won't happen with most drivers and anyone who thinks so is, shall we say, "Optimistic". How is the equipment supposed to be repacked for the return? And how long is it going to take? Some people aren't very realistic.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

The trucker has no choice...especially when its the policy of the shipper that once you sign for it, you own it. I have recieved dozens of large pacakges. Generally a screw gun will get you inside within a minute or two. The OP said he has recieved 6 large packages...so he must own a cordless drill. Look at the pics ...it was a 2x4 frame with im guessing USB or plywood screwed to it.

Actually, the trucker does have a choice. I too have received dozens of large packages. Actually, many hundreds of large packages for two different companies. Unless there's an obvious reason to unpack the crate or box, they aren't usually going to wait. And more often than not, a screw gun won't do it. What I received usually was nailed shut. The large crates I've received at my house were all nailed shut too.

Just because the shipper requires you to sign for something doesn't mean that you run the whole show until you do sign. If the package shows no signs of damage to the outside, why should you be allowed to open the package? If there's no damage to the outside then it's unlikely that the damage was done by the shipper. That's not the case every time but usually it's so. If you can do it quickly and not compromise the packaging you might get away with it sometimes. It's not a perfect system, that's for sure but the trucking companies aren't trying to rip off the customers either.

Bruce

[Al Willits]

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At least we can completely agree on this one Al. I know that's going to help you sleep better at night.

Bruce
"""""""""

u betcha.....


I post my opinions, they're not always right, but they're not always wrong...just my opinions.

There was some posts as I read them, that we may not have the whole story, my response wasn't whether he was telling the truth or not, but that we can only respond to what we read.

Sorry should have been floor model, I stand corrected, but I figured most would catch the meaning that he shouldn't expect a "new" unit.

Fault? no probably not, but if he'd have looked at the unit before dragging it downstairs he wouldn't have been out the added time and expense that he was upset about, that's where I fault him.
I bet he looks before he drags anything else down the stairs, least after this I would......probably..

Don't think I commented on Redwood's demands, but I think I mentioned General only, and the fact they seemed concerned, and I wonder if they even know what Redmond is doing, but the main thing is General IS doing something.

Ah... the driver who dropped off my York stuff asked me to check to make sure all was alright, no dings or dents so I accepted them, UPS has waited while I have uncrated parts that came in broken containers, and FedEx waited while I opened a SVS sub woofer that came in a slightly dented box, packages that came while I rebuilt bike motors were always opened if damaged, no...maybe they all won't wait, but the ones that come to my shop do, I wouldn't ask them to wait while I set up a item and checked it, but I'll open the box and look, them mark that the container came damaged next to my signature, along with the date.
If they wouldn't wait, (none never did) they'd get a chance to drag it around in their truck a bit before bringing it back.

Happy, no I wouldn't be if I got a broken shipment, but it seems he was very upset about dragging it up and down, that could have been avoided, which might have made all this a bit less stressful... imho

Al......who wife just called to say the very large maple tree in our back yeard just dropped a major limb on his boat and garage and he gets to cut it up in 90+ degree weather plus fix whatever else got broke....have a nice day...grrrrrrr

[George Summers]

This is the first time I have chimed in, but, I had to add my two cents. Throughout these posts, people have sorta' beat around the bush about unpacking or not unpacking. Being retired from the materials management arena (shipping, receiving, storerooms, warehouses, etc) I can tell you that if the package 'appears to have been damaged', the freight company will and can wait while you open and check for damage. If there is 'no visible or apparant' damage to the container then you sign for it and if the item(s) are damaged, that is called 'concealed damage' and the recepient still has the right to file claim. The procedures may vary between carriers but the right is there. You must call within a reasonable amount of time and hold all items and packaging for the carriers rep to come and inspect. You have the right to add comments to the inspector's report should you wish to disagree on some point or to clairify some point. Any one who tells you different is not telling you the truth.

George

[Tim Morton]

Fault? no probably not, but if he'd have looked at the unit before dragging it downstairs he wouldn't have been out the added time and expense that he was upset about.

Gary when did you notice the damage? Did you uncrate it prior to moving it down to the basement? I am guessing by your description of a tight 90 degree turn into the basement that the entire crate would not fit down. Not that it is relevant, because damage in shipping is damage in shipping, but i am curious as to the chain of events.

[Phil Thien]

Any one who tells you different is not telling you the truth.

George

The impression one gets from reading your post is that there was visible damage to the package and he could have inspected it but either didn't know or declined. And, that some of us have said he wouldn't have been allowed to inspect a box w/ visible damage.

To clarify, I have never said he wouldn't be allowed to inspect a package w/ visible damage.

To clarify further, there was apparently no visible damage to his packaging.

To clarify even further, it is actually up to the driver whether a receiver can open a package before signing for it. And I have been told no on two occasions where there was damage to the packaging.

In one case, it was a box of RAM insured at over $25,000. The box wasn't even that large, but it was part of a shipment valued at over $100,000. The box had a hole it in. The driver didn't feel comfortable because he didn't know me. I didn't feel comfortable signing until I counted the modules. I had to call his dispatcher to get the driver to let me open it.

In the second case, it was an LCD monitor that was part of a shipment of 25 monitors. One of the boxes han been peeled by a forklift and I wanted to make sure the monitor was okay. He said no. I asked why not. He said, "I don't have to give a reason, take it or leave it."

[Phil Thien]

Gary when did you notice the damage? Did you uncrate it prior to moving it down to the basement? I am guessing by your description of a tight 90 degree turn into the basement that the entire crate would not fit down. Not that it is relevant, because damage in shipping is damage in shipping, but i am curious as to the chain of events.

Even if he had noticed the damage before moving it to the basement, it isn't unreasonable to expect a vendor is going to make it right by sending replacement parts. I've started using purchases that arrived broken with the assumption that a reputable firm would take care of me on the back end. Never been disappointed.

[Gary Herrmann]

Gary when did you notice the damage? Did you uncrate it prior to moving it down to the basement? I am guessing by your description of a tight 90 degree turn into the basement that the entire crate would not fit down. Not that it is relevant, because damage in shipping is damage in shipping, but i am curious as to the chain of events.

I noticed the damage about 15-20 minutes after I signed the bill of lading. I called Redmond one minute after that. They told me to call Old Dominion which I did upon hanging up.

I emailed the pics of the jointer to OD about 30-45 minutes after I signed the bill of lading. OD told me it would be ok to take it downstairs to my shop since they had the pics. I didn't want to make my wife park in the driveway for - its been what now, 6 weeks?

So yes, it was uncrated and moved into the basement the day it arrived. I also figured it would probably start to get rust spots being outside in a MO summer (very humid). Both Redmond and OD knew about the damage less than an hour after I found it and agreed it was ok to take it downstairs - despite the fact that a claims inspector from OD would be coming to examine it.

[Tim Morton]

Even if he had noticed the damage before moving it to the basement, it isn't unreasonable to expect a vendor is going to make it right by sending replacement parts.

Did I say any different?? Of course not. In fact I believe I stated that in my question.

[Andrew Williams]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is starting to get a bit too personal?

[Nancy Laird]

No, and I'm beginning to think that it's getting a little to much of "he said..he said/he did..he did/he should..he shouldn't" and away from Gary's problem with Redmond and the machine he bought that was delivered severely damaged. We could sit here and debate for the next three weeks on who is responsible and what should have been done and what was done and how it's going to be fixed, and it wouldn't accomplish one darned thing. What has been done has been done, and you can't go back and change anything. Gary seems to be handling it well with the General rep, apparently to his own satisfaction, which is what counts. "Shoulda, woulda, coulda's" are easy for everyone to chime in on, but the bottom line is that Gary is the one who needs to be satisfied. If he is, we should be.

Just my 1.98.

Nancy

[Matt Meiser]

Nancy is right, I'm sure both parties know of things they would do differently next time. Hind sight doesn't resolve the problem. I assume that the original purpose of this thread was to a) put some pressure on Redmond to make things right after a couple weeks of trying privately and b) ask for advise on how to handle the situation.

As to the whole side debate about freight inspection, could we please just accept the fact that different companies and drivers handle it different ways. Personally I think we seen enough evidence to prove that fact!

[Bruce Benjamin]

As to the whole side debate about freight inspection, could we please just accept the fact that different companies and drivers handle it different ways. Personally I think we seen enough evidence to prove that fact!

No! I will not accept that! It's just plain WRONG!

Ok, so now onto why this discussion is useful and what to do if it's annoying you. This is useful because we don't all know everything about how shippers work, what to expect, and what our rights are. Most, many, or at least some of us will have to deal with a large delivery like this in the future. I have more than average experience in shipping, receiving, and delivery. But I still don't know everything and this has been an interesting and enlightening discussion. For anyone who is tired of it, why are you still reading? I suppose we've about beat this one to death but it's just weird to see people on a forum like this trying to get people to stop discussing something. Why? Just stop reading it.

Bruce

[Roger Savatteri]

one more count here not to order from Redmond.

ps. don't forget to print out the postings thus far and send it off to the top execs of Redmond. Regardless of your positive results from General........and again in a weeks time with the additional postings.
ps 2. next time deal with Jesse at Eagle Tools.