Looking for Someone to Make Sugar Maple Drum Shells

[Dale Stagg]

Can't blame him however. If he paid for all upgrades himself, he has no security that he would ever get the first drum. If he did all this, he could just purchase all equipment and hire a person to do the turning himself. He wants minimum risk for himself and person agreeing to do the work himself.

David,
Another one of the big "gotchas" other than those already mentioned is the depth of cut. Bowls usually don't go deeper than 6" or so. We get 6" of depth by placing our tool rest in the center hollowed area as we go deeper. If you want to cut multiple blanks from one log, you can't do it this way. You can get mulitple cores using a straight coring tool like the Oneway Easy-Core system (or similar from KM etc). None of these systems will allow for coring something that deep. A typical deep hollowing rig might be an option except that they use solid 3/4" steel rod as the cutting tool holder that isn't good for more than 12". Your floor toms and bass drums would require hollowing or cutting a piece twice this depth if I understand you correctly.

So you need a $5-10k lathe, ~$2k in hauling and handling upgrades, and a superduty custom deep hollowing rig ($1k if designed and welded yourself). Can you say "kaching kaching" before a turner even gets going? This doesn't include the other custom tools you'd need to make such an item. If you are serious about this endeavor, you should be willing to pay for all of the upgrades and make arrangements for logs to be delivered up front before any work begins.

I wish you well,
Dick

[Ron Sardo]

I don't have 5k to give you for a set-up cost. I am willing to work with you only if you have what it would take to do this already. I need you to be incredibly capable with your tools, and be alright if I don't make you rich overnight.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want someone else to fund your idea. You do not want any part of the monetary risk that you envision will make you money. You just want some dope to do all the work and you are only willing to pay for the shell that meets your extremely high quality standards? Did I miss anything?

There is a reason why there are so few companies that do this.

[David Loewen]

Ron, your last post is a little nasty, It's unfortunate that the thread has to decay to near name calling. I am pretty sure that I mentioned at least a couple of times that I wasn't looking for someone unsure of themselves. "If you are interested and capable...", or something like it, was what I said.

I know that it poses challenges, but someone who is already an incredibly capable turner isn't afraid of the challenge that this poses. And that's why I am not looking for an amateur or hobbyist turner, but rather someone who can wrap their head around the idea, and say, "Yeah, totally I can do that..." even if they see some obstacles.

I never said anywhere in this post that I "want someone else to fund my idea." It isn't simply a matter of not wanting "any part of the monetary risk that I envision will make me money" at all. And I certainly am not interested in the quality of work that "some dope" is capable of doing. I want someone who is talented with "their instrument" so to speak. I fully understand now that this site sees a lot of hobbyist turners who have in-turn taken an interest in this posting, and that's great, the more the merrier (plus most of you have had great input so thank you for that), and also realize not the degree of difficulty involved in doing these shells (which is why there aren't a lot of people doing it), but I don't think something that is going to scare me away. I like challenges, and am always looking to team up with really good people (attitude is usually like 90% of it). It isn't unfair to pay someone who already has most of what they need to do the shells, per shell unless I was only looking for a one-off, but I assure you, I am not! That being said, I don't know how many full drums sets worth of shells I would ask for, so I guess I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way. I mean, it's not like they're worth only 40 or 50 bucks - more like 5-10 times that. So Ron, I would reword your last statement, it was a bit cutting and uninformed. They are only doing half the work with regards to the drum, it would still need to be sanded, stained/painted, drilled, hardware mounted (my own custom designed and machined hardware which is not cheap), advertised, transported, and sold before I even saw a profit. And like most business out there, the profit comes in numbers.

I am not funding someones "Hey I think i can do that but don't know where to start so I'll monkey around and buy some tools, maybe a new headstock, cherry picker...)" just for one shell that isn't very fantastic. No, I received one call/email. "I can do it, it's not a problem" the guy said. That's what I am looking for. I need confidence, ability, sheer talent, and someone already set up to do most of it. And for that, I am willing to compensate fairly, which over a number of shells will really start to mean something. I mean think of it this way, if you get all the appropiate sizes of shells from one log large enough to make the kick (or bass) drum, especially if you bought a whole tree that could give you 2, 3, or even 4 or more of these kick sizes, you are making an incredible profit on a very minimal investment (the tree, some sealer, and kiln drying time) and your labour (which would decrease with time and custom jigs). Oh, and yes, I do have high standards, if I didn't, I'd just go ask a high-school teacher around here instead of calling across the continent.

So yes Ron, you did "miss something..."! Sounds like you are lookin' out for your brothers though, and I can certainly appreciate that.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The tone of this thread is getting a little too heated. PLease keep you comments to the point of the thread without any flaming.

I don't want to have to close and move it!

Thanks,

[Ron Sardo]

Ron, your last post is a little nasty, It's unfortunate that the thread has to decay to near name calling. I am pretty sure that I mentioned at least a couple of times that I wasn't looking for someone unsure of themselves. "If you are interested and capable...", or something like it, was what I said.

I know that it poses challenges, but someone who is already an incredibly capable turner isn't afraid of the challenge that this poses. And that's why I am not looking for an amateur or hobbyist turner, but rather someone who can wrap their head around the idea, and say, "Yeah, totally I can do that..." even if they see some obstacles.

I never said anywhere in this post that I "want someone else to fund my idea." It isn't simply a matter of not wanting "any part of the monetary risk that I envision will make me money" at all. And I certainly am not interested in the quality of work that "some dope" is capable of doing. I want someone who is talented with "their instrument" so to speak. I fully understand now that this site sees a lot of hobbyist turners who have in-turn taken an interest in this posting, and that's great, the more the merrier (plus most of you have had great input so thank you for that), and also realize not the degree of difficulty involved in doing these shells (which is why there aren't a lot of people doing it), but I don't think something that is going to scare me away. I like challenges, and am always looking to team up with really good people (attitude is usually like 90% of it). It isn't unfair to pay someone who already has most of what they need to do the shells, per shell unless I was only looking for a one-off, but I assure you, I am not! That being said, I don't know how many full drums sets worth of shells I would ask for, so I guess I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way. I mean, it's not like they're worth only 40 or 50 bucks - more like 5-10 times that. So Ron, I would reword your last statement, it was a bit cutting and uninformed. They are only doing half the work with regards to the drum, it would still need to be sanded, stained/painted, drilled, hardware mounted (my own custom designed and machined hardware which is not cheap), advertised, transported, and sold before I even saw a profit. And like most business out there, the profit comes in numbers.

I am not funding someones "Hey I think i can do that but don't know where to start so I'll monkey around and buy some tools, maybe a new headstock, cherry picker...)" just for one shell that isn't very fantastic. No, I received one call/email. "I can do it, it's not a problem" the guy said. That's what I am looking for. I need confidence, ability, sheer talent, and someone already set up to do most of it. And for that, I am willing to compensate fairly, which over a number of shells will really start to mean something. I mean think of it this way, if you get all the appropiate sizes of shells from one log large enough to make the kick (or bass) drum, especially if you bought a whole tree that could give you 2, 3, or even 4 or more of these kick sizes, you are making an incredible profit on a very minimal investment (the tree, some sealer, and kiln drying time) and your labour (which would decrease with time and custom jigs). Oh, and yes, I do have high standards, if I didn't, I'd just go ask a high-school teacher around here instead of calling across the continent.

So yes Ron, you did "miss something..."! Sounds like you are lookin' out for your brothers though, and I can certainly appreciate that.

Thank you for confirming my belief.

You expect someone to buy a tree, have it transported to their business, cut it to size, inspect for defects and use only the best sections, create jigs, turn some shells, check for and burn the defects that nature had hidden in the wood, kiln dry the blanks, check for and burn the defects that may have happened during the drying process, turn a second time, check again for any defect that may have showed up, then ship you a shell in hope that it meets your very high quality standards and hope that you are willing to pay for their work.

BTW you are right you never said you wanted someone else to fund you, you just said you had no money.

First you say "And like most business out there, the profit comes in numbers" then you say "I don't know how many full drums sets worth of shells I would ask for, so I guess I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way." So which is it?


You say " I am not funding someones "Hey I think i can do that but don't know where to start" Is sounds like you don't even know where to start but you expect us to read your mind when you say "I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way." Of course you want someone "who is already an incredibly capable turner isn't afraid of the challenge that this poses." And you want them to do it on their dime

This sounds like a partnership destined to fail with the turner losing the most.


"I received one call/email. "I can do it, it's not a problem" the guy said."

To this guy if he really exists, my advice is to get a hefty deposit before you start.

[David Loewen]

Ron, your concerns are duly noted, but I believe you are getting too excited about this. You have taken some comments and tried to make them say something that they weren't intended to say. Clearly you aren't the person I am looking for, but thank you for you time and interest. Others may heed your warning, but if they truly believe that they can do it, and don't think they have to buy a whole tree for one shell, I'm sure they can decide for themselves what cost is worth their time. Ron, I am an honest and integerous man, and am not interested in ripping any one off, and don't appreciate you insinuating anything of the sort. But yes, you are correct, this is experimenting with the possibility of Solid shells. They have to be quality, but like anything else, they do have to be within a someone's price range. If they are not, then what's the point. It is being done, so I know it can be. If someone wants 5-10k down just to try this, to be quite honest, I can't. If someone can do it with what they have or doesn't mind a minimal jig investment or something similar, then awesome. I'm not the devil. I just have a great Idea and wanted some help with it, is that so bad?

This is a post looking for something/someone, and that person and I can work out the details. Would you do me the courtesy of allowing me to find someone and work out the details with them please (and I mean this in the nicest and most sincere manner possible). Please and thank you Ron.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, and if I have, which I may very well have, than please accept my most humbe apology - I do not mean to offend, after all, this is your "turf" not mine!

[David Loewen]

Ken, thank you for the accountability. I do not intend a harsh tone. i was just trying to confirm details (which is difficult when on the defensive). I think an undue amount of sarcasm might be coming across that isn't there (or for sure wasn't intended) on my part. I will be careful.

[Montgomery Scott]

Water jet cutting sounds like the best approach to coring the large stock. A company I used to work for many years ago would use water jet cutting to cut up to 6" thick glass slabs.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David...What you are requesting would be extremely difficult for the average turner. What you probably need is someone who is already setup as a production turner. You might have better luck by posting over on the AAW site....http://www.woodturner.org/

Good luck with your endeavors!

[Reed Gray]

David,
You might try Vernon Leibrant. www.vkleibrant.com or vkleibrant@yahoo.com. He is in Everson, WA. I have seen him at shows, and he turns some bowls up to 30 inch diameter.
robo hippy

[Chuck Lenz]

I'm with Ron on this one. Even if I could do it, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole.

[Bill Grumbine]

I've been reading this thread, but staying out of it up until now. Speaking as a professional turner who handles large pieces of wood, there is no way I would want to touch this thing. Ron is right, the main risk falls to the turner trying to accommodate the specs given. If the solid drum idea falls through for whatever reason, you still have the option to put your fancy hardware on a laminated drum and you are really out nothing but the time you have spent so far on this.

The handling of logs the size needed for a job like this is beyond most people. It requires a large investment in material handling tools, as well as the space to use them. Then there are the logs themselves. Then there is the skill needed to turn them, core them or whatever, and then the space to store them and dry them. I can tell you right now, I have friends with kilns, and they would not be happy to see me showing up with space gobbling hoops. It cuts into their own business too far, and that is one of the reasons I think you are not seeing a response here. I'm not interested, because it would take away from my regular business way too much for a very risky venture. And, the worst part of it is, it might take off, and I would be stuck doing it whether or not I wanted to for who knows how long.

There are people who will have the equipment to do this. What you need to do is find someone who has not just that, but the inclination as well, and I think that is going to be the hard part. There are reasons there are only a couple of companies doing this. And by the way, Ron is a good friend of mine, and I respect his business sense enormously. If you knew the resources he has just for knowledge about this kind of stuff, you would too.

Bill

[David Loewen]

Bill, I appreciate your input, and just for the record, I did appreciate what Ron was saying, just not how he was saying it. A person can have all the knowledge, money, good looks, and business sense in the world, and still not be very nice to talk to. Know what I mean?

[David Epperson]

This part of the thread is where the possible drifted away from the feasible.

One could take the section of tree trunk destined to be the blank, make one cut into the blank from the outside (OK it will require someone with a band saw with at least as much capacity as the tallest blank). Once into the blank to a depth which would be the thickness of the rough shell, turn and make the cut around the inside periphery of the shell blank. If you took one of the "solid shells you describe as your goal, cut one cut from end to end and then reglued it together that is what is being discussed, or if one of the otherwise "perfect shells cracked in one spot and was then glued back together. The good part about this method is that

1: there is only one glue line with an area of the drum shell thickness times the drum height - A 24" tall drum with 1/2" sides would have only 12 square inches of glue seam. Sort of like a shell with a single stave.

2: several blanks can be harvested from the same tree section - each one size smaller than the last.

3: I still think that DNA drying would help reduce losses, but even if not the sections could be dried in a more or less reassembled formation after roughing, leaving some air gap, with the "rings" "stickered" to hold them apart for airflow.

One MIGHT even consider some sort of spring stave hoop for maintaining a round shape during drying.

The same approach COULD be accomplished by using either a long stroke recip action and a band saw blade (24" stroke scroll saw?) Which would not even require the one glue line.

Slow RPM with a router cutter (both ID and OD) would probably be the best route to take. And require the least complex/large equipment. Roughing could even be done with a power hand planer with rounded blades to match the diameter (Roughly). Powered neander if you will.

The real sad part is I've got an Elm stump in the back yard that is right at 6' tall and around 42" across at the widest point, and more than 24" across 90° from that. Could possibly get 3 attempts out of the one stump.
But I don't have the equipment to even think of attempting it. Much less the practical skill. It's still standing there because I don't even have the chainsaw with the horsepower to take it down. Elm wouldn't make a great drum, but it would be free wood to practice the technique on.

[Chuck Lenz]

Someone pass the popcorn please. I've got a feeling this is going to get good.