whats best for beading? stanly 45, 66, woodie?

[Jeffrey Larsen]

Hello--

was gressing up a slim little piece of oak to make a picture frame with--about 2x 1/2 times several feel long. this was an excuse to use some of my tools I have been obtaining but still am just learning to use...

I cut a rabbit with a stanley 78 and cleaned it up with my new to me sw marked 79. Was pleased with the result--will work well on the back of the frame.

For the decorative part, I used my stanley 45 ( have never used it before on any real "project...") to make 3 bead. I set it as low as possible and ultimately came out with 3 nice beads running the length of the 3 foot board. Nice, but the 45 did a lot of getting hung up and it certainly wasn't the nice smooth cut for the beeds I had hoped for. Philosophy on the 45? It seems to have potential, but also, I have read about a lot of people who don't like it and suggest having a collection of other tools and planes instead.... how about the 45 for dados and rabbits?

Another option I have considered is obtaining a 66 or moulding plane for such tasks... Thoughts?

One of my basic recurrent questions has to do with the combination planes; Are there folks out there who use the 45 and or 55 as a mainstay for beeding, moulding, etc; otherwise stated, are these tools interesting odities or can they be made workhorses in the amature woodworkers shop?

Broad questions of function and philosophy, but will be very interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this stuff!

Thanks, Jeff

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Jeff,

First, have you seen Alf's homage to combination planes? Here it is:
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/combinationplanes.html
The second division on that page goes into use. Like all planes, the combis need to be tuned or at least checked for straight, lined-up skates of the same depth--for instance, the front skate on some I have seen would rest a little high than the rear skate portion. This can cause all sorts of planing problems. In general for triple reeds, really light cuts work best.

I owned both a 45 and 55. the 55 was my mainstay for many tasks. Dadoes wasn't one of them. For metal planes, the #46 is far superior. I would even say the #46 is one of the best working planes Stanley made. I still prefer wood dado planes, though.

I used the #55 to add decorative elements like what you did, to remove the bulk of the waste prior to using hollows and rounds for larger moldings, even to recreate picture molding for historical homes (and my own house).

In short, the #55 was a wonderful plane when I had it. I sold it for a couple reasons (still kick myself once in a while). One reason is I do prefer wooden planes for many of the tasks. For instance, I think a wooden moving fillister is a superior plane for rebates. And because it has a skewed plade, it does cross-grain work far easier.

I still have several metal plows such as the Record 043 (and a Russian variant), an 044, 050, a Hammler Miller plow, etc. The 050 I have used for beading and I do like it better than the larger metal plows. But still, I mainly use wooden versions. Even for larger grooves, I have a wood plow which is easier in some respects to use--but you have to be comfortable using irons without adjusters.

I still am not use to using my present tools to waste wood for the larger moldings. For me, the 45 and 55 shined in that aspect because of the adjustable angle on the fences.

If I did not have these other options and still had either the 45/55, I would be a happy camper. For me, they always worked wonderfully.

Take care, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Have you had a chance to use the Miller plow yet? I cannot see why it should not be used also for beading - I think that I'd find any excuse to use it, if I had one (I was soooo tempted!)

I have not a lot of experience with the #45 for beads. Frankly, I have not used mine much at all, even for ploughing grooves, which is what I think it does best. I have a Stanley #66 and have used this a fair amount, but the way I prefer to bead is with a shopmade scratch stock.

One type is like those that Garrett Hack uses:



These work very well.

The other is a basic scratch stock such as this one I made out of a marking gauge:



Cutters are easily made from bandsaw blade. I use files that are used to sharpen chainsaws.



The other beading tools to try are dedicated woodies. The ones I have seem to best suit straight grained wood - which is why I prefer scratch stock in the gnarly hardwoods we have here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Nardi]

I'd keep a eye out for a woodie in nice condition with a tight mouth. Dream to use compared to multiplane. Of all my multiplanes I like the Record 50 the most.

[George Springer]

Jeff,

What Mike and Derek didn't say is the cutters need to be very sharp. Your choice of wood, oak and I'm assuming red oak, is stringy and if the blades aren't sharp and set for a light cut it will be tough work cutting beads. Once you've worked the oak try the same cuts with a dense hardwood like bloodwood and you will be amazed how differently the woods cut. Review Alf's web site, her insight on using combination planes is very good.

I've got the Sargent equivalent of the 45 and use it regularly along with a 66, depending on how much wood needs cut. I've been assembling a set of woodies lately and after fixing the blades which are often incorrectly sharpened (read reshaped) by former owners, I find that I go to them first. The only problem with the woodies is they take lots of storage space.

Sharp and light are the way to go regardless of tool choice.

GS

[Larry Williams]

Jeff,

The 180º arc of a bead makes it among the most difficult of profiles to cut. Basically, the sides of the bead are made by a scraping cut even with a plane. The instability of a combination plane contributes to the difficulty. Any side-to-side rocking makes for a difficult cut.

A side bead plane eliminates this rocking by providing a guiding profile as you get deeper into the cut. For years I did restoration work on late 19th Century houses and you can tell where a side bead plane was used and where a #45 or (less likely) a #55 was used by the quality of the bead.

I think a side bead plane will offer the best results but they're demanding when it comes to sharpening and proper tuning. I would let the frequency of use and the type of wood I use determine which tool I would look to use. I've used a #45 quite a bit, the #46 a little and found a #55 too heavy, too awkward and too time consuming to set up. The #66 hand beader is a useful tool but is troublesome in soft woods. A scratch stock's usefulness depends entirely on how much effort you're willing to put into its making.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

What Mike and Derek didn't say is the cutters need to be very sharp...

Ha, that's because I think every edge tool needs to always be as sharp as one is capable of making it...

But George is absolutely correct. Should have mentioned that with metal planes, it is imperative that the irons always be kept sharp. You can run a woodie until it is way too dull. You cannot do that with a metal plow which has no real mouth.

Another aspect which people can have a love-hate relationship with woodies is that the planes are separate--no irons to flop in and out to pick a different size. Just pick a different one. This means that while the irons can remain set up (saving fiddling around changing and resetting irons in a combo plane), one does have a challenge of where to store the bulk having separate planes creates.



Seven irons for a metal plane to encompass the sizes of side beads above take a lot less room!

Take care, Mike

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Jeffrey and all,

One thing I really like about woodie sidebeads is the positive registration that Larry Williams cited. For example, here is a project that has cockbeaded drawers, and a matching bead detail at the bottom of the drawer section:

http://www.traditionaltools.us/cms/i...album=35&pos=0

Those beads are slightly under 3/32" thickness for the drawers, and about an 1/8" for the waist bead.

Probably the perfect tool for rounding those edges would have been a small hollow. But I didn't have a set. So I looked through the molding planes, and it turned out that a 3/16" sidebead would put the right mold on these strips, just ignoring the quirk. The thing that was good about using a plane was that no fixturing was required--I could hold the strip off the edge of the benchfront, and run the plane along the edge, the whole thing freehand with no fixturing. And end up with a straight piece of molding--the thing has to be dead straight.

Wiley...apologetic about showing the same projects, but shop time about nonexistent for past year.

[Jeffrey Larsen]

sounds as if there are many ways to skin a cat. Also sounds as if the tools must be very carefully chose to work with the wood in question.

Some of the problems I had with the 45 had to do, I think with the fact that it is from the sw era and seems to have not been used much at all. It appears about new, but a lot of the parts are frozen up; I really am not clear how the thing works--I put in the blade and then pretty much have been flying by the seat of my pants to see how it works beyond that. with beading, seemed somewhat critical to get it lined up right; however with some of the other blades, I guess I will just have to play around quite a bit.

I gather this plane will be good for use with fairly soft straight graned woods?

I felt with oak that I was doing the best by taking tiny shavings and then working down a mm at a time or so.

Before I draw too many global impressions, will take appart the machine and oil everything well--although the blades appear unused for the most part, will also formally try to sharpen them if they don't work right the first time.

Any blades from the 55 interchangeable with the 45?

I have some old marking guages and have been thinking of making a scratch stock out of one--would an old 45 blade cut down somehow be good for this?

thanks again for all the input! Jeff

[Mike K Wenzloff]

The blades for a combo plane are overkill for a scratch stock. Might work, but just profiled old saw blades will provide a ton of opportunities to make the cutters.

Not certain about the 45/55 cutters being interchangeable. Never tried as both mine simply had a full compliment of cutters.

Softwoods can be more difficult to use with a combo plane. Grain run-out is more important, the softwood fibers don't cut near as cleanly--and sharp is even more important. I've done a lot in Oak (and harder woods) as well as Mahogany, Poplar, Cherry and some Pine. By far the Poplar and Cherry is at the top of the easy list for the softer woods. Mahogany is a treat to profile. So is Makore and other firmer hard woods.

What makes Oak and Ash more difficult isn't the hardness, its the cell structure of the wood--they are stringy woods.

In most woods when using a metal plow, a moderate shaving to waste the profile and reset to a fine shaving for the last passes work well. I even would hone before resetting to a fine profile just so the finished profile is clean.

Another nice thing about the woodies is that the surface gets burnished when full depth is reached, a metal plow doesn't have that capability.

A scratch stock is a near necessity that matches the profile if you are mitering or even coping runs together. This is done to blend them together prior to fixing them in-place. You can create a great run of molding using a hand plane of either wood or metal variety, but there will usually be small variance at a given cut point when joined to a section just inches away from the same stick.

Well, back to the shop...take care, Mike

[Gary Blum]

Hi all,

The 'right tool for the job' discussion has been going on for an awfully long time it seems.

The year is 1897. In the Chas. A. Strelinger & Co. tool catalog, the writer is relaying a little story to illustrate the relative merits of combination planes vs wooden bead planes:

"While to a great extent the Combination Planes like the No. 45(page 633) are taking the place of the Moulding Planes, they do not by any means cover the entire ground. Where a considerable quantity of a certain kind of work is to be done, the Wood Planes are so much lighter and so much more convenient to handle, that it is not always the best economy to use a Combination Plane for this class of work.

We recently had an instance of this. A mechanic in boasting about the merits of his Combination Plane( a No. 45) stated that he had beaded 5000 ft. of ceiling on a summer hotel job upon which he had been employed. We did not condider that this was very much to boast of, and think that any man who would use a plane weighing 3 1/2 lbs., for six or eight days, when he might have bought a 1/4" bead plane, weighing about 10 ounces, for 40 cents, and with it have done the work in 15 to 25 per cent less time, and with corresponding less expenditure of strength, is rather closely related to that useful-though humble-animal, with kicking proclivities, long ears, and an unmusical voice."

Kind Regards,

Gary Blum

[Jake Darvall]

45 blades are interchangeable with 55. You can make a blade to fit as long as its the same thickness as them (don't remember exactly. About 1/8" thick)

45/50/55/wooden beads all work. The 45/55 will be easiest to set If your just doing side beads since you only need one skate.

But however you do it read the grain, especially from the edge. Good straight timber, planes up very quickly. Against grain makes a mess. And for some woods it doesn't take much of a reversal. So don't plane it if it looks like it'll tear. Thats when you can scrape, or if you haven't the time for that. Rout. or select another piece of timber.

That 5000ft job if it all was good timber was quite possible. Like a soft pine that could be planed any direction. Sharp blades make it easy. Don't have to be a weight lifter. But I'd imagine he'd be fit.

[Jeffrey Larsen]

I played with the 45 more last evening. Have oiled her all well now and waxed the parts that rub on the wood. Also worked to get stuff aligned better--She is working much better now and I have to say I am quite pleased.

I am new at this, so it doesn't take much to impress me. Having said that, after turning an ugly piece of pine into a very nice beaded with large beads, I can see how someone could do a lot of lumber with this machine. Pretty cool. Guess I'll just have to play around enough to get an idea what it will be useful for and what not. I do know that I get a lot more satisfaction out of using it than a router or shaper.

Wondered about the cross over between the 45 and 55 because I have both with a full original set of blades for both. Most for the 55 have never been opened--I belive it was built in ? 1902--Am going to learn as much about the 45 as possibly before tackling the 55...

On the topic of scratch sticks--I have a bunch of old marking guages that look perfect to use for this project--How do you fasten the the "scratcher" into the wood?

Thanks! Jeff

[paul womack]

On the topic of scratch sticks--I have a bunch of old marking guages that look perfect to use for this project--How do you fasten the the "scratcher" into the wood?

Thanks! Jeff

Here's my scratch stock page, which may have some good info for you:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/scratch.html

BugBear