Jointech Clincher and Fence Size

[Raymond Fries]

Looking for advice on Jointech 12” or 18” Clincher and Router Table Size.

I have a small shop (at least till I can move) and I am always looking to save space. The size of the 24” x 32” table would be easier for me to use, however, I do not want to sacrifice future expanded capabilities for current space needs. We all know when you get a new tool, new doors are opened for expanded capabilities. So here is what I have and please offer any suggestions that might be useful to help me make a few decisions.

I have a Dewalt 625 router which weighs about 11 pounds. I have never used a router table with any bit that did not have a bearing. I want a precision system to use and have the ability to make joinery. Currently I have a table saw with no tenon jig and no jointer. From what I have read, Incra and Jointech are both excellent systems. People seem to think Jointech has a slight edge on features but Incra has the edge on customer service. I am still undecided on Incra vs. Jointech. I do prototype work and only have a need for one or two of a kind projects so I do not need production machinery.

A lot of my questions come because I have never done joinery and I have never seen anything like these systems on New Yankee Workshop or Router Workshop. Are these systems really worth the investment for precision? Those guys get precision without one of these systems. These systems look wonderful to me but I would like to understand what I gain by investing in one of them.

Here are my questions – Be patient Ladies and Gents as I am really new to this bigger better router table?
I just want to do all of my homework and purchase the right one…

Are tenons for example just as easy on my table saw if I get a jig? Would that jig money be better invested in the router system?

If you have a 12” system and would need to dovetail a 24” wide board, could you machine half of it and then flip the board and set the position so you could do the other half?

Is the 18’ system a better choice to accommodate any possible larger projects?

Has anyone bought the smaller system and then been sorry for not getting the larger one? I have read many posts that state that it is very difficult to machine wide boards. Not being a production shop, I really do not care if it takes a little time to setup because I only do prototypes. Does the machine hold the wide boards securely so you can repeat the machining precisely over the full length of travel, or, is the time setup the only complaint?

Will a heavy router make a 3/8” Jointech or Incra phenolic plate sag? Should I get aluminum?

Does anyone have a DW625 router used under the table? Is the fine adjustment easy to use under the table? Or is the Incra plunge lift a better choice?

Is the 5 ring set offered by Jointech sufficient to accommodate all of the bits necessary for joinery? Is the 8 ring set offered by Incra a better choice? Do you even deed a ring set? I never see them on the Router Workshop.

What is the real advantage of getting a 32” wide fence on a 24” wide table? Is the 4” overhang on both sides of the table really that useful?

Incra touts the advantage of having an mdf top laminated with phenolic is a closer tolerance for flatness?

From their site: “MDF as a core material is about perfect, all things considered. It has a thickness tolerance of +/- .005” for a ¾” thick sheet versus .034” for a similar thickness piece of solid phenolic.”

In the world of wood, is a thickness tolerance of .029 that critical for a well made project. Has anyone that uses a solid phenolic top ever had an issue with a tight fitting joint because of a table thickness tolerance?

Thanks for any help or direction you can provide.

Raymond

[Peter Kuhlman]

Wow - lots of questions here. I will try to answer some - in no particular order.

I started with a 27X32" Woodpecker table with the Incra 18" positioner. I found that with using a positioner, it was far easier to do work on plywood panels with a larger table so recently built a 32X48" with the positioner moved as far back as posible on the table so the insert plate for the router could be moved back and really love it. My table top is made from phenolic coated plywood - 1" thick. I built my base and used lots of bracing to keep it flat. I use a PC 7518 router and the Woodpecker QuickLift and while I have a Dewalt 625, I have not used it in a table so can't really answer that usage. I would think the Woodpecker PlungeLift would work really well for it. A heavy router can sag a phenolic plate over time. I use an aluminum plate with rings from Woodpecker.
The 12" Incra system if still available was built far lighter than the 18" and 24" and had different features and options.
A longer fence - longer than the table is wide - helps with large panels. Otherwise, no real advantage. Mine is 36" on a 32" table.
My router lives in a metal housing made by Woodpecker with a 4" dust port. If you have dust collection around the actual router, the insert rings will be useful. The real benefit to me of the insert rings is to provide support as close to the bit as posible for small pieces.
The table needs to be as flat as you can get it from front to back - direction of wood flow. Side to side does not seem to be quite as critical - to me. You can make any table material flat with shims and braces underneath. In reality, the only times I need to use the positioner is to rout parallel grooves in a panel that need to be precise. I found that a dedicated dovetail jig works far easier and quicker than using the Incra system (for me). So, my recommendation is to use as large a table top as possible with a basic fence that just clamps to the table top. It will do 99% of what I use a router table for. Incredibly small fence postion changes can be made by just bumping one end. Trying to work on a wide board standing vertically on a router table is really tough. I recently tried doing finger joints on a 15" wide plywood panel that was 28" long - very difficult to position and hold accurately as it had to be vertical. Any error in clamping really adds up.
As to Incra versus Jointech, both really good. Jointech tends to cost more, be heavier built. I got turned off at a woodworking show as the Jointech staff loved to bash the Incra products while the Incra staff actually said complimentary things about Jointech and just explained the differences in the products.
I have lots of Incra and Woodpecker products - some really great and some I should not have purchased. My Incra table saw system I could not live without - the TSIII - but I could easily live without the router table system.

Many professionals just use plywood with a router screwed to it and a hardwood board that has been planed flat and square as a fence. Sometimes technology just gets in the way - and costs lots of money!!
Just my opinions.
Pete

[Barry Anderson]

I've a complete Jointech system on my tablesaw, the clincher, smart fence, Phenolic tables, etc.

The very best part of this system (IMHO) is the Jointech router lift. Expensive but really makes it quick to set up your bits. For instance, if you've a dovetail bit, you do one setup, mark the setting from the digital readout on the bit and you are set to go ... forever. It also has extremely little backlash. Jointech sez none ... but there is a very tiny amount. I've the big 3.5 HP PC router in it and it does a fantastic job. The Milwaukee 3.5 with the variable speed adjuster which is especially made for router tables also fits with no problems. The 5 ring system works great ... I have had no problems with it. I really prefer a router lift to adjusting the router from below the table. It makes things a LOT easier and more precise. If cash is short, though, adjusting it under the table works ... I did it for quite awhile and still do when I'm using my DW625 on the other tablesaw wing.

Very close, or possibly tied for favorite tool, is the clincher. It takes awhile to integrate the way it works into your system, but once done it really makes for very precise work, very easy completed. As to the size ... the larger the clincher, the farther you can set it from the router bit and still allow a larger range for the fence to sweep through. This CAN come in handy at times, it depends on how big the work you are doing is. On the Sawtrain, this is not an issue.

I've my clincher mounted on a sawtrain and use it for both the router wing and my saw. The sawtrain allows me to use all this expensive hardware in a more regular manner, helping to justify it's cost.

Probably my LEAST favorite item is the smart fence. Mine was REALLY concave (about 0.017" from one end to the center and again to the other end. I sent it back to Jointech and they fixed it ... kinda. Now it is only concave about 0.007". In addition, the mounting for the vacuum hose is loose and falling off. It needs longer screws to more securely mount it. I really see no need for any overhang of the fence ... unless it is the type in which it is necessary to clamp it to the top.

The wings on both sides of my saw are Jointech phenolic. The one holding the router is sagging in the middle between 1/32" and 1/16". The one on the other side is true. The one which is true has a mounting hole in it also and has the DW625 in it. The sag was easly fixed but it was something which is not an "advertised feature". I don't believe that aluminum is much better. Sommerfeld has been selling an extruded aluminum top and they have removed it from the market, temporarly, because of sagging. They advertised that is would not/could not sag ... WHOOPS!! I DEFINATELY DO NOT BELIEVE that stuff about MDF and laminate being stronger than Phenolic. I have had MANY benches, tables, etc with laminated MDF ... and it has sagged!! As far as the precision of the table thickness ... who cares?? What does this do for a router table top?? MDF is the cheapest way out. If propery braced, it will probably do a fine job.

As far as doing tenons, you can do them on a router, table saw or a bandsaw ... or even by hand. Each has their advocates and each method is as quick as the others once you learn it. In each method, most of the time is spent "sneaking up" on the perfect fit. In every case, except hand tools, once that is achieved, you are "set-up" and the rest go pretty quick ... unless you are paranoid, like me, and check every one.

I hope this helps. It is only one persons opinion ... and you now what they say about opinions.

Good luck and all the best in your woodworking

Barry in WV

[Hal Flynt]

I have the 32" fence and it overhangs my table some and has never been objectionable. I bought the 32" so if I ever wanted to use it as a saw fence, I would be good to go. I don't have any concave issues.

For the length of the clincher, 90% of what I do uses less than 2 inches. if you want to do the fancy box joinery, then you need enough depth for the largest box. While I was trying to decide on the 12 or 18, my wife called on the cell phone and was ready to go to the antique show and when I told her I was trying to decide on a tool, she said "just hurry up and buy it and meet me in 30 min." SWMBO I got the 18".

My clincher is mounted on a “mounting board” that is mounted to the table with bolts and knobs through a slot, so I can pick up about 4” there if I needed it for some special cut. I could always mount it even further back on another bolt, but I can’t recall any reason to have the fence travel more than a few inches for router work except box side joints, but more useful on the table saw for sure.