Steel City Granite Jointer Fence Rocks

[John Thompson]

I wasn't aware that anyone was making a machine with a granite fence....if this cathes on I know what I'll be doing with all those odds and ends pieces of granite left over from making countertops and islands that we first sit on in hopes of using, then try to sell/auction off, and utlimately end up dumpstering when the warehouse gets too full...... Is this fence being sold as a upgrade over a cast iron fence? I wonder if it is simply a cost thing and the manufacturer is simply using granite that would otherwise be dumpstered?

Evening Rich..

The fence will be standard equipment on the Steel City 8" jointer being released around January of 2008. As stated.. after-market fences are just a thought for the future as that is not a priority at this time.

But the fence is only the surface if you haven't kept up with current affairs. A Band-saw and Table saw will have a black granite top also with a riving knife on the TS, which constituted changing arbor design from tilt to vertical.

And these aren't being made with left over scraps as I have excess to here in Georgia. I believe the standard top you use for counters is 3 mil which is 1 1/2" thick and 2 mil at 1" thick. The table tops are 2" thick and re-enforced with stainless bars epoxied inside the high grade chinese black granite. The the top is laser cut to within one millionth of an inch flat.

Granite as cast iron is not cheap in quality form.. but it readily available and easy to laser cut in lieu of a long stress relieving process that has various results in grade even under close quality control scrutiny. Depending on how evenly the carbon particles got dis-appated in a particular batch.. you could end up with anything from "good.. bad.. or ugly in that same crock-pot.

Just curious... how many instances are you aware of where you broke or chipped 2 mil black granite before.. during or know of after installation?

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Nancy Laird]

I wasn't aware that anyone was making a machine with a granite fence....if this cathes on I know what I'll be doing with all those odds and ends pieces of granite left over from making countertops and islands that we first sit on in hopes of using, then try to sell/auction off, and utlimately end up dumpstering when the warehouse gets too full...... Is this fence being sold as a upgrade over a cast iron fence? I wonder if it is simply a cost thing and the manufacturer is simply using granite that would otherwise be dumpstered?

Rich, the SCTW granite tops for cabinet saw and band saw, and fence for jointer, were introduced at the AWFS 3 weeks ago. They are a new item for SCTW and are causing quite a stir. Lots of people are complaining that now they won't be able to drill and tap for jigs, etc. Opinions are all over the map by people who haven't seen them, from "not just no, but heck no" to "gimme me one NOW." Here's the skinny, per Scott Box (VP of USA and co-owner of the company):

SCTW purchased a quarry in China and is quarrying all of their own granite for these tops/fences. They have a geologist on their staff who checks out all of the granite and passes or fails each slab to be used on the machines. The machines are also being made in China, at a factory nearby which SCTW built and owns; they are NOT being built in the one-size-fits-all factories like Jet/PM/Grizzly/Delta, etc. This is NOT a cost thing for them; this is a new and very innovative idea for a perfectly stable, perfectly flat, non-rusting table/fence. As of right now, the jointers can not be retrofitted for the older jointers (if they could, we'd have one right now!!), but that is being discussed and considered. The granite tops/fences are an upgrade on the machines and may cost a little more. However, the stability of the material, the ability to get and keep it perfectly flat, the lack of rust, and the sheer weight of the tops is worth the extra $$$ that they might cost.

I don't think your throw-away granite would be a viable candidate for this application. For starters, the tops are a full 2" thick; I doubt if your throw-away granite is that thick. These are not pieces that have been welded/glued/laminated, or otherwise cobbled together; each top or fence is one piece of granite. The weight of the tops adds stability to the entire machine. The fences won't warp or twist because of the stability of the granite.

I could go on and on, but I won't. Give SCTW the benefit of coming up with a new and innovative idea, and give it some time. Time will tell whether this is good or bad.

Nancy (131 days)

(P.S., I am NOT affiliated with SCTW, I just love their machines, their tools, and their people. We have two of their machines and couldn't be happier.)

[Alan Tolchinsky]

But your dad's tombstone is just sitting there. If I drop something on my cast iron it's probably not going to break AND if it does I can weld it back together and you won't be able to tell that it was broke. What are you going to do? Use JB Weld????
This country boy thinks that Granite is a stupid idea

Cast iron is very brittle. During my move the move lost control of my table saw, it tipped over and a chunck of the cast iron wing broke off. I never knew it was that brittle. Just the right force on cast iron and it will break. The granite idea sounds very promising to me.

[Mike Heidrick]

Could someone add a granite face to an existing CI fence for a jointer? Benefits of both ideas. And I bet you could use the "scrap" pieces for that. If the jointer fence idea catches on I bet we see add-on retro fit pieces.

[Gary Keedwell]

Could someone add a granite face to an existing CI fence for a jointer? Benefits of both ideas. And I bet you could use the "scrap" pieces for that. If the jointer fence idea catches on I bet we see add-on retro fit pieces.

"Scraps" will not be within the tolerance required for true precision. Alot of people don't pay enough attention to jointer fences IMNSHO

Gary K.

[Ken Belisle]

[LEFT]Precision laser cut to within .000,000,001 of an inch with extremely high-grade Chinese black granite I was told. I can't physically see 1 millionth, so.. I will take the Steel City's Tool-guys word for it.

The Number you wrote is 1/100th of 1/1,000,000th......which I find very hard to believe. Sounds like "salesman" talk to me, especially for a product made in China. Back when I was a machine tool designer, tools used to make jet engine parts were accurate to +/- .0002........which means that Steel City is making wood working tools one hunderd thousand times more accurate.

A quick web search showed approximately 90% of "Precision" laser cutting was +/- .002" with only one site stating +/- .0002 accuracy.

What was a bigger shock is that your fence isn't even listed on the Steel City site, yet. I was hoping to see what they advertise it's accuracy as.

Glad you like it and hope you get many years of service from it.........

[Jack Ganssle]

I guess they'll have to rename the company now: Rock City Tool Works.

[Wilbur Pan]

The Number you wrote is 1/100th of 1/1,000,000th......which I find very hard to believe. Sounds like "salesman" talk to me, especially for a product made in China.

The report on the Popular Woodworking website quoted a flatness of 0.001-0.002". Granite can be made flat up to .000025". For an area that has a lot of stoneworking experience, 0.001" would be a chip shot.

Also, don't be so quick to disparage the quality of Chinese made products. Quality can be had in Chinese manufacturing, if you're willing to pay for it. The thing is, people want to pay only $300 for a jointer, and then wonder why the quality isn't up to snuff. You could make a $300 jointer in the U.S. and it would be just as bad. You could also make a top quality jointer in China, and it would cost close to a similar jointer made in the U.S.

[John Thompson]

The Number you wrote is 1/100th of 1/1,000,000th......which I find very hard to believe. Sounds like "salesman" talk to me, especially for a product made in China. Back when I was a machine tool designer, tools used to make jet engine parts were accurate to +/- .0002........which means that Steel City is making wood working tools one hunderd thousand times more accurate.

A quick web search showed approximately 90% of "Precision" laser cutting was +/- .002" with only one site stating +/- .0002 accuracy.

What was a bigger shock is that your fence isn't even listed on the Steel City site, yet. I was hoping to see what they advertise it's accuracy as.

Glad you like it and hope you get many years of service from it.........

Morning Ken...

Let me apoligize for the mis-quote on "my" part stating the the tops and fences would be laser cuts within millionths (millionths regardless of my bad math) as per my conversation with Scott Box in my shop. A lot was discussed as I had many questions.. and I tried to keep his quotes as accurate as they were being given to me.

I wanted to clarify and I did just that as I just got off the phone with Scott Box (VP and co-owner of SCTW). He was told by the Chinese engineers that with laser cutting and re-lapping that it could be ground down to within millionths if necessy. He was told!

But the tops and fence are being laser cut and relapped to "surface plate" standards and are closer to the .001 tolerance you mentioned. I ask if he would state an advertised tolerance when the new product is ready for market. He laughed and told me "NO". When I ask him why.. he stated "for the same reason you're asking now.. someone will question whatever tolerance that would be printed... and it is a non issue with WW machines surfaces already lapped to "surface plate" tolerances.

And I agree.. as you and I know having been around automobile engines.. etc. that the naked eye can't see millionths and that you can't squeeze a knats *ss between a machinist edge and a surface at .001. I put in a quick call to the machinist at the restoration shop at my work (Year One) and my BIL who is a shop foreman in the machine shop at Delta Air Lines and they both concurred. My BIL told me that some of the computer programs using lasers is pretty amazing compared to what I was familar with from the past.

So... All!.. accept my apology for the mis-quote on "my" part. As I stated, this was a rapid fire conversation that lasted for the duration of time it took Scott Box and I to install the granite fence on my existing jointer in my shop. I tried to keep it as "to the word" as possible without the use of notes as we had our hands full of black granite. But I do stand corrected as his final answer to what will be advertised was simply... "Flat... dead flat"!

BTW.. the fence or new tops won't be on the web-site till they are ready to take the New to market. The fence on my Steel City jointer is "one" of "three" proto-types that currently exist and it had to be returned from Las Vegas by truck before it was brought and given to me for testing in my shop.

But... I did re-check it this morning before this post. How flat did I find it?

Flat.. dead flat... and no rust either!

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Mike Cutler]

John.

I like the idea of the granite surface. Having a dead flat reference surface would be of benefit in any shop.
I'm not sure I buy into the worries about the longevity of the surfaces. I'm certain they can be damaged, but anything can be damaged. My shop is in an unheated/ portion of my garage. During certain times in Jan/Feb there is measurable distortion in the top of my TS, but it's flat again as soon as it warms up. Granite would be less susceptible to temp changes I would hope.
Granite surfaces and tops have been in use in the food service industry for decades, specifically candy makers. I used to watch the guy make fudge and pour all the stuff onto a granite surface and roll it out. So it can take some amount of abuse. A ball peen hammer might be a bit much though.

I'll have to check into the tablesaw when it comes out. I have the Steel City 25" Drum Sander,and have been quite happy with it.

One question, How much does the thickness of the granite take away from the amount of blade height that can be exposed ?

Thanks for the review and post.

[Wilbur Pan]

I guess they'll have to rename the company now: Rock City Tool Works.

Where Fred and Barney outfit their shop.

[John Thompson]

John.

I like the idea of the granite surface. Having a dead flat reference surface would be of benefit in any shop.
I'm not sure I buy into the worries about the longevity of the surfaces. I'm certain they can be damaged, but anything can be damaged. My shop is in an unheated/ portion of my garage. During certain times in Jan/Feb there is measurable distortion in the top of my TS, but it's flat again as soon as it warms up. Granite would be less susceptible to temp changes I would hope.
Granite surfaces and tops have been in use in the food service industry for decades, specifically candy makers. I used to watch the guy make fudge and pour all the stuff onto a granite surface and roll it out. So it can take some amount of abuse. A ball peen hammer might be a bit much though.

I'll have to check into the tablesaw when it comes out. I have the Steel City 25" Drum Sander,and have been quite happy with it.

One question, How much does the thickness of the granite take away from the amount of blade height that can be exposed ?

Thanks for the review and post.

Afternoon Mike..

How much does the thickness take away...... It doesn't, Mike. They angled and excauvated the area that the blade tilts.. rises and falls to compensate and then re-enforced that area. Steel City gave this a lot of thought in advance and did a lot of testing for abuse to see if the idea would even be worthy of consideration.

Interestingly enough.. the idea was suggested to Scott Box by a Chinese engineer while having a few beers after a business meeting at the plant. They all laughed and passed it off as a stupid idea until the engineer went to the near-by quarry and brought a piece of black granite back to the plant. After he played with it a few days it was presented and We are discussing it now.

Once upon a time.. the majority thought that the suggestion that the world was possibly Round was a very stupid idea. But.. someone questioned the fact he would fall off the world if he ventured too far out to sea. A man took the gamble and we now have a round globe.

The same could be said of the Wright Bros. and their stupid idea they entertained of the possibility of a machine flying. I personally have a desire to pursue the idea to find truth instead of just basing my opinion on assumtion.

Regards as I have an appointment with Year One, Inc.

Sarge.. john thompson
















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[Carl Crout]

I beieve that Delta use to spec their cast iron to .015 so a granite one at even .001 would be really flat compared to that.

[Charles Jackson III]

Nice gloat!

[John Shuk]

Originally posted by Wilbur Pan:
Also, don't be so quick to disparage the quality of Chinese made products. Quality can be had in Chinese manufacturing, if you're willing to pay for it. The thing is, people want to pay only $300 for a jointer, and then wonder why the quality isn't up to snuff. You could make a $300 jointer in the U.S. and it would be just as bad. You could also make a top quality jointer in China, and it would cost close to a similar jointer made in the U.S.[/QUOTE]

I agree that quality can be had in Chinese product. Junk can be made in the US as well. Just look at Buck Brothers saws and chisels in their current incarnation. However, if pricing on quality is similar to that in the US then why are they being shipped around the globe?