I Need Help With an Ethical Dilema

[Dan Mages]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice and thoughts on a situation where there are some sticky ethical issues. I was laid off back in May and am eligible for unemployment benefits, if I am looking for a full time job. I have not collected my unemployment benefits yet due to my wedding earlier this summer, moving to Wisconsin, and my wife's promotion and an upcoming move to Connecticut.

My wife and I have discussed the situation in great length. I was very unhappy in my previous job. She is encouraging me to go back to school and change my career to baking and pasty arts. So I will be going back to school in February in CT to start this new career with the long term aspirations of opening my own bakery. It is good to have someone you love to tell you what you need to hear.

So here comes the dilemma. I am eligible for over $9,000 in unemployment benefits if I am actively seeking a full time job. According to the state of IL, This means that I have to apply for 3 jobs weekly.

Is it wrong of me to apply to jobs for the purpose of collecting my unemployment checks even though I have no intention of actually taking these jobs?

My natural instinct is that applying to jobs I have no interest in is disingenuous and wrong. However, I still have the small part of me that says $9000 will go a long way in paying my tution.

All advice is welcome.

Thanks,

Dan

[Jonathon Spafford]

It's cool that you are thinking through this situation like that... a lot of people wouldn't give it a second thought!

My simple answer is that I personally am siding with your natural instinct.

Anyway, whichever way you go, I'm wishing you the best success in your business endeavors!!

[Jim Young]

I think it would be wrong to collect the $$ while applying for jobs which I didn't intend to take. I'm sure people have done it, but that doesn't make it OK.

Maybe there is some type of program for financial assistance for people wanting to go to school after getting laid off. It might be worth a check and at the same time you can go on with a clear concience(sp?).

[Brian Kent]

It seems like the heart of the rules has to do with getting us moving forward with the next steps of a career, which you are doing. To have integrity with the letter of the law too, apply for jobs that would seem wildly exciting and wonderful, even if beyond your reach, or work that has to do with what you want to do next in the cullinary arts. A little on the job training before the formal training begins!

[Stuart Johnson]

You will be spending your time pursuing a new career not hanging around the local pub or bowling alley. In my opinion draw the unemployment and meet the requirements by applying top level positions in your new field. You won't get a job but you just might open a few doors.

[Doyle Alley]

I was in the same situation as you a little over 16 yrs ago. I decided to go back to school and earn my 2nd bachelors degree. I put in lots of "garbage" applications. Nobody requires you actually go on interviews. Just hit the various stores and put in applications to meet the requirements.

Here is something that will make you feel better about it. Those unemployment benefits are paid for by payments from employers. The company that fired you will be "hit" for a benefits claim which affects the rates they will pay for future unemployment insurance. If you were dismissed through no fault of your own, I figure they owe you something. This is your way of getting back at them.

[Rich Stewart]

I wanna know where I sign up for pasty school. Sounds like a job I could love. For LIFE!

Take the money.

[Joe Pelonio]

Everyone else does it. As an employer I have had many applicants over the years that came in strictly to be able to use me as one of their potential employers for maintaining their unemployment checks. Some even used me when they didn't have an interview, I told them we had no openings then I got a call later from the state to verify the person applied.

Here's my suggestion. You have a plan, but let's face it something could come along that delays the school or maybe allows you to do school at night and still work. Go for the unemployment with the attitude that if you find something really good you might accept it. Then you are not taking the money under false pretenses.

[David Duke]

Here is something that will make you feel better about it. Those unemployment benefits are paid for by payments from employers. The company that fired you will be "hit" for a benefits claim which affects the rates they will pay for future unemployment insurance. If you were dismissed through no fault of your own, I figure they owe you something. This is your way of getting back at them.

This is a statement I have a hard time coming to grips with (and yes I have been a business owner for over 30 years). While I agree that people should have some benefits available to them when laid off or fired, in most (not all) instances there are legitimate reasons for the termination, there could have been a slow down in business or the employee just wasn't performing no matter how much training was made available to them.

But that aside, your statement that he shouldn't worry about taking the benefits because the company is paying for the unemployment insurance is absurd. Thats about like saying its OK for a jury to award a multi-million dollar settlement to someone even though it was a frivolous claim simply because the insurance company will have it to pay. We all pay because as everyone knows companies will pass along any increases/claim payments to there customers.

As to the OP's question regarding the ethical issue he is asking about, in my opinion the fact that he is having to ask should be his answer.

Oh, for those interested, in over 30 years of being in business I have had to fire (no layoffs) just one person and he did file/receive unemployment benefits.

[Lee Schierer]

In some states, depending upon why you lost your job you may be eligible for unemployment while you are going to school to be retrained. There were certain provisions of NAFTA that required federal support for retraining for jobs lost to Mexico. You might want to approach your local unemployment office and see what they have to say. I suspect that there are more ways to collect than meet the eye at first glance.

Also being a full time student getting training for a new career is full time job seeking.

[jeremy levine]

In some states it is legal to train for a new job and get benifits. Maybe you could find out a bit more for your states office of blah blah...

NY state has a clause
"Section 599 of the Unemployment Insurance Law makes it possible for you to receive benefits while attending a training course or program that the office where you filed your UI claim has APPROVED. Approval is based on the type of training, its duration, your need for training and other factors. "

[Doyle Alley]

It isn't at all like trying for a big jury award just because the insurance companies have big pockets. There is a reason it is called unemployment "benefits". If a worker has been loyal to an employer (i.e, no fault on his part) and that employer chooses to discontinue employment, then that worker is owed a benefit.

While I can certainly understand your position as a responsible business owner and I credit you with maintaining an attitude of loyalty to your employees, not many business operate today with the same kind of loyalty standards that were prevalent in past decades. I would go so far as to say that most large business operate today with the thought that an employee is just an asset with no more value than a piece of depreciable machinery.

In my case 16 years ago, I had a very vindictive district manager that overrode the decision of a local office manager and forced my termination. I took much comfort in taking my "benefit" knowing that it was their fault I was unemployed and that they would be punished with higher rates for their actions. Had it not been for that one district manager, I would have continued a loyal relationship that was beneficial for both sides.

If I may digress further: in the case of my current employer, I have survived 5 massive "downsizings" as the company has struggled. While I respect that as a necessary business decision, I saw good co-workers forced to leave just because their name came up in some type of "lottery" while bad co-workers kept their jobs simply because their name never came up. I don't feel bad at all about any of those good former employees taking full advantage of any benefit. On the other hand - if the company had actually shown some intelligence and downsized "from the bottom of the barrel" I wouldn't feel the same way.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I see absolutely NO reason why you can not send out your resume with complete honesty.

You can specify things that you absolutely require ( to get you to quit school) such as
1.) you won't take less than 250-Gees per year,
2.) your privacy rights require that you refuse all drug tests
3.) you will not work for any one younger than you.

Etc., - whatever it is that would be the ticket to get you to walk away from school is fair game to put in your resume and there is no reason to tell any one why. Just be honest about your demands.

I will bet you a dollar you will be turned down for every job.

Additionally some states will pay you to get retrained~!! Ask~!!

[Steven Wilson]

So here comes the dilemma. I am eligible for over $9,000 in unemployment benefits if I am actively seeking a full time job. According to the state of IL, This means that I have to apply for 3 jobs weekly.

Is it wrong of me to apply to jobs for the purpose of collecting my unemployment checks even though I have no intention of actually taking these jobs?

Yes it would be unethical to collect unemployment if you have no intention of ever working again in your current field. Are you so disgusted with your former field of employment that you would never work in it again? Or, are you sick of your former employer? My guess is that you're sick of your former employer. If this is the case then you can ethically collect unemployment by applying for good positions in your current field, and new one as well, while you actively train as a baker. Great opportunities are great opportunities and if one came up in your current field it would probably be a good idea to take it. You can always work and study at the same time.

[Dan Mages]

In some states, depending upon why you lost your job you may be eligible for unemployment while you are going to school to be retrained. There were certain provisions of NAFTA that required federal support for retraining for jobs lost to Mexico. You might want to approach your local unemployment office and see what they have to say. I suspect that there are more ways to collect than meet the eye at first glance.

Also being a full time student getting training for a new career is full time job seeking.

I did call the state of IL regarding this issue and they informed me that I would become intelligible for benefits as a full time student because I would not be able to work full time. I think it is nuts and am trying to reach my state senator to let him know my thoughts on the situation.

see absolutely NO reason why you can not send out your resume with complete honesty.

You can specify things that you absolutely require ( to get you to quit school) such as
1.) you won't take less than 250-Gees per year,
2.) your privacy rights require that you refuse all drug tests
3.) you will not work for any one younger than you.

Etc., - whatever it is that would be the ticket to get you to walk away from school is fair game to put in your resume and there is no reason to tell any one why. Just be honest about your demands.

I will bet you a dollar you will be turned down for every job.

True, but the state has the right to audit my application history and doing so may land me in trouble. Secondly, part of this dilemma is a matter of respect to the hiring company by not sending them useless resumes.

Dan