The China Syndrome

[Greg Busch]

Well as this is my first post on this forum, so i think i'll qualfy under the "dont be too hard on the Newbie" rules (they do apply here don't they?)

So 'cmon who amongst you hasn't looked at some of these chinese websites or alibaba.com and thought 'bugger me (and i mean that in a non-kiwi way) aren't they cheap! so what gives?
I've read a lot of posts re Stepper v Servo, water v air cooled, local tech support, laser manufacturer etc, etc..
Now i know a lot (well looking at the list its probably a 95% -5%) of posters are from the USA so i can understand the predominance of Epilog / ULS et al but from down this neck of the woods its not so clear cut (surely newbies are allowed at least one pun).
So what interests me, is; How many problems do you get with an American built laser system that your average tech couldn't nut out?
Most electronic systems nowadays are simply repaired down to LRU (lowest replaceable unit) which is, of late, getting larger as technical skills drop off, so i imagine the Chinese built equipment is largely a reverse engineered US design so surely the same applies?
I appreciate the laser tube itself would be a specialist product that would have to be returned to the manufacturer but the motion sysem / power etc not too complicated?
So a chinese system with US Laser / Optics could be a feasible option? i ask this because there is such a huge difference in cost between two comparable systems that it would be fiscally irresponsible not to question why that is.
I understand GCC are Taiwanese and from what i read they are quite well recommended.
so if anyone has any experience with the "Hyundais" (Yes i know they are Korean but grant me this one) of the Laser engravers, i'd like to hear about it.
Cheers,
Buschy

[Frank Corker]

Buschy, I'd suggest you read this thread, you'll see perfectly good reasons as to why they are so cheap..

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=67517

[James Jaragosky]

I did the same as you. Trying to read everything I could on the U.S. Vs Asian quagmire, I decided on a rabbit.Just couldn’t understand nor justify the 11k difference in cost for the same laser purchased here.That said I haven’t received it yet, but I get to pick it up from customs Monday… and I am very excited.Remember when Japanese cars first hit the market here in the early 80’s there was a lot of resistance to them at that time, I get the feeling that this is a similar situation. Of course there is always good reason to be cautious when shelling out that kind of money. All that said, I read some great reviews on the rabbit line and the rep here spoke adequate English and he is located here in Texas. I will keep you posted on how my first week goes with this machine, it should be quite interesting I have never even seen a laser engraver work but I have run a plasma cutter in the past and the operating principle seems the same. Anyhow it will take a lot of insurmountable difficulties to make me regret saving 11 thousand dollars. If I figure my time at $20.00 an hour I can spend 13.75 weeks fixing any problems and still come out ahead of an American unit. Also replacement tubes are 1/4 the costI may regret my choice and wind up eating my words but I doubt it. Will keep you posted.

[Rodne Gold]

I think the biggest problems with the chinese machines would be variable engraving/cutting quality , the tubes do not maintain power levels over time that are within a narrow range of when new , IE power will drop significantly over time and thus give rise to unreliable engraving and cutting if using original settings. I also forsee that mechanical performance and precision will exhibit the same characteristics as motions systems etc begin to wear.

The biggest problem of all , however is for those that own expensive mainstream machines , cos if the cheaper machines do 70% of what the expensive machines do , they will be adopted quickly by cash strapped buyers. Thus one BIG barrier to entry (price) will be removed and if the price of the capital equipment is radically reduced , so will the price one can command for a job and thus Return on investment of expensive machines will suffer.
The mainstream manufactureres need to find ways to make their machines more competitive , either better and more powerful sources and added features for the money , or drop the price. Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring the cheap machines is silly , their price will rise slightly and their quality will rise even more , ultimately making them a deadly threat to the whole industry.
Laser engravers are going the way of vinyl cutters and large format digital printers , soon everyone will have one and all will be fighting for the same slice of the pie.

[Mike Null]

My Trotec is one of the more expensive of the lasers but I make my living with it. It is not a "toy" I have stashed out in the garage for weekend projects. It worked properly when it came out of the box and has everyday since. It also has a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty and great tech support.

The Chinese lasers do not work out of the box and some have taken weeks to get up and running. The software isn't even close to being on a par with the leading brands, tech support is non-existent, warranties seem to be 90 days, accuracy and consistency seem to be lacking in many of the machines according to reports here.

I too, would like to save 80%, but these products aren't ready for a production environment yet. Ultimately, they will force prices down, but for now, those of us whose business is lasering can't take the risk.

On the other hand, if I were a hobbyist, I'd be looking very hard at them.

[Alan Case]

I was quoted a life on a chinese tube of between 0 and 2000 hrs.
When I queried this the answer was "well it may not work when you get it, that is why we send a spare"
I agree with the previous poster, if you are buying it to make a living and it has to be in production 8 hrs a day then buy an an American brand that is established. If you are after something to play around with as a hobby then the choice is yours.

Regards Alan Case

[Scott Shepherd]

If I figure my time at $20.00 an hour I can spend 13.75 weeks fixing any problems and still come out ahead of an American unit.

Call me when you have spent 13.75 weeks working on your machine and let me know how your customers appreciate that level of service. I'm with Mike, we bought a higher end machine for a reason. We are in business to deliver product to customers (thought we are all in that business). If the covers are off and I'm working on it, then we lose twice (if not more). We lose a minimum of $120 per hour for our laser time, and we lose the time I could be working on something else, like artwork for another project or vinyl work ($60 per hour or more). So by my math, if you'd lose $150 for every hour, then you end up with 70 hours being the "break even point", not 13.75 weeks. Rest assured, you'll probably spent close to that. So have you really saved? We just finished running a large job and the rate ended up being almost $400 per hour. Figure at that rate and you have even less. I honestly think you're looking at it from the wrong end. It's not about how much you save, it's about how much you won't make. Every hour it's down you're not making money. If it's down a week, you could easily lose $5K worth of business, and if you need a part, it's going to take you a week or more to get it.

We depend on our laser to make a living. That means we need stability, reliability, quality, and support. Having something go down and not knowing when it'll be running again is unacceptable to our level of service. We simply can't have our machine down for a week or more to get the issues worked out. If you read the posts owners have posted, you'll see they are often down for extended periods of time.

I didn't buy a laser to enter into a correspondence class on how to become a electronics technician. I bought it to make money. If I'm working on the machine, then I'm losing money at a rate that's not worth the risk, not to mention, I'm delaying customer orders. Without customers (who in case you haven't noticed lately, want everything tomorrow), we have no business.

[Darren Null]

GCC is Tiawanese, but they use American (Synrad) laser units. Proper, metal lasers, in other words. Most of the cheap Chinese contenders use the glass-tube-type lasers which 1) Have a considerably lower shelf life (~2000 hours if you're lucky, I believe) 2) Can't be re-gassed and 3) Do not have a very steady power output (I'm told) compared with with metal Synrad-type units.

That's leaving aside all questions of the head-tracking gear and software compatibility.

In theory, there's nothing stopping you replacing the glass tube with a Synrad (or comparable) unit (and sling in a compatible power pack for the laser) BUT you'll have to rebuild the whole laser-control part of the machine so it works with your new unit. If that is closely integrated with the electronics that move the head around (and I suspect it is) then -basically- you'll be replacing ALL the electronics and getting them to talk to the (possibly custom) head-moving machinery.

Or (again in theory), you could take the current laser-control-out signal and put some sort of interpreter board to feed the new laser a signal it's happy with.

Either option would scare the pants off me if it's my money I'm playing with; but doable in theory if you're an electronics whiz.

Redsail and Rabbit of the Chinese manufacturers seem to be getting some happy feedback, but it's definitely worth hitting the search function of this board and the rest of the interweb to find out more before spending out.

As a comparison, my family have all got cheapo chinese iPod nano clone MP3 players. I ended up buying 6 to get 4 working ones. I did save money over buying 4 genuine iPods and in general we're all happy BUT the software is glitchy and hastily produced and they only function properly once you've mastered their little idiosyncracies. Different idiosyncracies for each of the 4 players, I might add. The chinese laser experience seems to be a very similar lottery, if what I've read is correct. You pays your money: you can get a perfect runner with no problems whatsoever; you can get one that you can work with after you've argued with it a bit and you can get a total lemon.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'm in Scott's boat. I spent a few extra $ on a machine that was bigger than I thought I needed (I was wrong, I needed it), and more expensive than I thought I could afford - wrong again.

18 months ago I spent $20K+ on my Spirit and it's about 2/3 paid for without one minute of down time.

Could I have spent half the money and gotten the same performance? Not likely... When I needed a new table saw, I didn't buy a cheaper table-top portable model.

When I buy a tool to make money... money is not a consideration.

[Mike Hood]

Just couldn’t understand nor justify the 11k difference in cost for the same laser purchased here.

Perhaps the glass tubes that are built in a back-alley shop in Xi'An China would be your first clue. ISO 9001:2000 certification isn't cheap...

… and I am very excited.Remember when Japanese cars first hit the market here in the early 80’s there was a lot of resistance to them at that time, I get the feeling that this is a similar situation.

It's not. Glass tube lasers are old technology... not new. Metal tubes are serviceable for a reason.

If I figure my time at $20.00 an hour I can spend 13.75 weeks fixing any problems and still come out ahead of an American unit.

I figure my shop time at $65 an hour. I get that PLUS the laser time ($2.00 - $2.50 /min). My Explorer (Pinnacle ZX) is just over a year old and has easily 1/2 paid for itself.

Also replacement tubes are 1/4 the cost I may regret my choice and wind up eating my words but I doubt it.

I'll never need to replace mine, just service the gas and get back to work. They're always serviceable and aren't "throw-away" parts like what you're getting into.

I hope you're right and get a good value, but if you're looking for justification after the fact, I suspect you won't find the large savings in the long run, and most of us are invested for the long haul on these.

[Skip Weiser]

Just for the record...

According to Photovac Laser in Ohio, they have had good luck re-gassing the Chinese laser tubes. They guarantee them for 1 year but they said they should last longer than that. They charge $1200.00 for the service.

[Micheal Donnellan]

Regarding alibaba.com, I placed ad on it ages agon and got 20 different companies emailing me a big difference in price and english ability. Also some of them will not stop sending me messages despite being told to do so. I have gone for a lg900 from wklaser. Did not go for them from alibaba.com but because they got good remarks on another forum. The other companies I got emailed from has mixed results in regards their reputation. I am waiting for the machine to be delivered and then the trouble of fitting it and getting it to work starts. I can't pay the big prices for the proper machines but should be able to get somewhere with this machine.

[Mike Hood]

... they have had good luck re-gassing the Chinese laser tubes.

I need guarantees in this world... not luck.

If it's not designed to be serviceable WHEN the gas gives up... it's of no interest to me.

I design airplanes for a living. I can't see my hard earned dollars chasing a disposable laser tube.

[Bill Cunningham]

For those of us outside of the U.S.A., American lasers 'should' be coming WAY down in price.. 4 years ago, I paid 17k for a laser that sells for 14k in the U.S. now, thanks to a much weaker U.S. dollar on the world market, the 14k US$ laser should be about 13.5k Canadian or 3-4k cheaper that what I paid 4 years ago.. Providing of course that the Canadian distributors pass their saving on to their Canadian buyers. If they don't then the distributors that do, will reap the rewards.. Since the Canadian dollar passed the U.S.$ in value over the last few months, there has been a bit of a groundswell of customers that are sick of paying the traditional 30%-40% more, for no other reason than they are 'Canadian buyers'. The time for Canadian distributors of American products to quit marketing products with the unspoken motto "The Customer is Always Ripe" has just passed.. Until prices start to normalize between our two countries, a LOT of Canadians will be internet shopping, and buying their supplies direct from American distributors. For those of you in the U.S.A., you should expect to be shipping more stuff north anytime now...

[Darren Null]

$1,200 to regas a $200-$400 glass tube laser?