Finishing kitchen cabinets

[Anne Gray]

Hi- new here, and hope that these questions are not too basic and bothersome.

My father is making me mahogany kitchen cabinets. My job is the sanding/finishing. Based on his advice, I had planned to use Flecto plastic oil finish, and then probably Flecto varithane liquid plastic. Much to our surprise, Flecto products dont exixt anymore- I think the company was bought by Rustoluem.

From what I can find online and speaking to a Rustoleum rep, the closest products would be Watco Danish oil, and Premium (oil based) Varithane poly.

Someone from Sherman Williams suggested Minwax Helmsman spar urithane, and no oil first.


Does the danish oil/varithane sound like a reasonable solution? Helmsman any better? What about Waterlox? I was not aware of this product until I started reading here, but it seems well liked?


I do not intend to stain the wood at all, and just want a natural, durable finish appropriate to kitchen use. I'm limited to brush/wipe products.

thanks!

[Jamie Buxton]

Anne --
Welcome! You'll probably get a zillion different opinions here about your kitchen cabinet finish.

Danish oil, in a lot of ways, is a thin varnish. If you're going to brush regular varnish afterwards, I'd skip the danish oil.
Spar varnish is a kind intended for wood on boats. It has extra ultraviolet blockers to deal with sunlight. It also is softer and more flexible than conventional varnishes, so that it can deal with wood flexing on a boat. The ultraviolet blockers don't help indoors, and make the varnish yellower. And softness is not a good property for kitchen cabinets. That is, spar varnish isn't a good interior finish.

You might also consider Minwax's varnishes. They, like Varathane, are broadly available.

[Anne Gray]

Thanks! The only reason that Helmsman spar urithane came up is that it was Sherwin Williams' guy's recommendation. Your argument against it seems solid...

So you are saying that Varithane *without oil* first is just OK, or is better? I thought that oil to soak in was extra protection, and that Varithane would only be on the surface, so it was not by itself ideal?
thanks!!

Anne

[Bill Ragland]

Thanks! The only reason that Helmsman spar urithane came up is that it was Sherwin Williams' guy's recommendation. Your argument against it seems solid...

So you are saying that Varithane *without oil* first is just OK, or is better? I thought that oil to soak in was extra protection, and that Varithane would only be on the surface, so it was not by itself ideal?
thanks!!

Anne

Actually Danish Oil provides very little protection on its own. Its best attribute is that it is easily repaired unlike polyurethane which almost always has to be totally removed to repair the finish. Kitchen cabinets are subjected to many substances like oil, water, grease, etc.. and therefore require more protection.

I am building cabinets using Goncalo Alves. The finish I am using is Watco Danish Oil cured for at least 72 hours and then spraying Resisthane Plus Pre-Catalyzed Lacquer. The oil pops the grain and adds a little amber hue to the wood and the Lacquer is the real protection for the wood. The Lacquer is waterbased, requires no sanding between coating as it burns in to the previous coat and it drys crystal clear. The only downside is that this particular brand of Lacquer cannot be brushed on, it must be sprayed. I have been very pleased with the results. It levels extremely well and it's tough to mess it up.

[John Keeton]

In a recent issue, Fine Woodworking did a comparison on the various varnish type finishes. They tested for hardness, protection from abrasion, chemicals, etc. The overall winner as I recall was Minwax Polyvinyl wipe on. It is also one of the cheapest. I have used this product for several furniture projects and love it. It lays down well, drys quickly, and seems impervious to nearly everything. Best of all, no brushes, no sprayers! I apply with cheesecloth. I have also recoated with it very successfully, and even added a coat over only a portion of the piece with no visible laps as long as you "draw out" or feather the edge with a lifting motion of the wiping cloth. I would only attempt this with a fresh undercoat, unless I scuffed with steel wool first.

[Steve Schoene]

Watco isn't a thinned varnish, it is a mix of oil and varnish, and can't be used as a surface finish, only an in-the-wood finish. It's good for popping figure on woods like cherry and maple and warming the tone under a waterborne finish. For those applications only one light coat is needed, followed by a substantial curing time before applying waterborne finishes--exactly as Jim is doing.

As Jamie points out, spar varnish is a bad idea for cabinets or furniture. Spar varnish, even low-grade ones like Minwax Helmsman, is designed to be flexible, and as a consequence is soft and less water resistant than other varnishes.

But there are other good oil based varnishes that will work well and give very good protection. It will probably easiest to use a thinned varnish that can be wiped on so that it dries more quickly and is less in need of being rubbed out--a big job for kitchen cabinets. I am particularly fond of the Waterlox line of varnishes. For Kitchen cabinets I would likely begin with about 4-6 coats of the Original/Sealer. After every couple of coats I would do some light sanding to level the finish, which will also have the effect of partially filling the mahogany pores, by sanding off the high points between the valleys of the pores. After you have achieved an even coating with the Original/Sealer I would shift to the Satin for two final coats to pull down the gloss, since kitchen cabinets today have typically gone to lower sheens--though that is strictly a matter of personal preference.

[Anne Gray]

Thank you all!

Steve- did you mean "exactly as *John* is doing?"

If so, then it sounds like two good options are:

1. One coat Watco Danish oil followed by cure time (what is long enough?) and then applying Minwax polyvinyl wipe on- how many coats?

(So it is ok to put water based Minwax on top of Watco?)

2. Waterlox original/sealer and satin as Steve described. How long between these coats?

I'd like something to enhance the warmth/color variety of the wood. Will either of these do it more than the other? I'm sure "which is best" is driven by personal experience and opinion.

[Jim Becker]

Anne, if you want the warmth, you need at least that first step of either just oil (BLO {boiled linseed oil} generally) or the Watco or similar. If you want to use the Minwax Polycrylic (not "polyvinyl") over that, it's generally a "best practice" to use a barrier coat of de-waxed shellac (Zissner SealCoat is readily available at the 'borg) before coating over the oil or varnish-oil, even if it's cured for weeks or months. You'll get better adhesion. Anything with polyurethane in it generally doesn't even like to stick to itself without proper preparation.

Whether you use an oil-based or water borne top coat, if you choose to wipe it on, figure about three-four coats per "brushed" coat for the equivalent build. But they can go on frequently (desirable with anything with polyurethane to avoid sanding between coats) so your actual finish time isn't extended all that much.

Personally, I prefer to spray the Minwax Polycrylic or any other water borne for best results. I'd choose an oil-based product for wiping in most cases, but that's just personal preference. And if you do decide to go with oil-based, you can make your own by buying any oil-based varnish of your choice designed for brushing and mixing it 50/50 with mineral spirits. It's less costly than paying for them to make it (they do the same thing essentially). Or go with the Waterlox which is a wonderful finish including the designed for wiping version.

[Steve Schoene]

Duh, I should have said Bill, who is using a spray on waterborne finish over oil. The best of the Waterborne finishes are spray applied. Even then, while waterborne finishes are quite tough from an abrasion standpoint, many of them still fall down a bit in terms of protection from household chemicals, in particular cleaners containing ammonia.

Waterborne finishes can, and this varies widely among brands, give a "cold" cast to the finish. Beginning with oil helps cure some of this. Waterborne finishes also can have a little amber dye added.

I am not a fan of any of the Minwax products--partially I am sure based on a couple of bad experiences that have let color my perceptions across the entire brand. But Minwax clearly makes its products to meet price points of big box discount stores, something not condusive to consistently producing the best products.

As far as the particular product, I don't see a Poly Vinyl Wipe-On product from Minwax. They have an oil based Wipe-On Poly and a Water-Based Wipe-On Poly. Frankly, there is no need for poly or polyurethane varnish on furniture. It is more abrasion resistant--which is well and good for floors, but over kill for cabinets and furniture. But it tends to be a bit cloudy, which becomes apparent when enough film thickness to provide good protection is achieved. It also can't be rubbed out as easily as other varnishes, if that is needed. By the way, Minwax's label instructions are quite optimistic, in that they say that 2 or 3 coats of the wipe-on finishes should be sufficient. That's equivalent to about one coat of a brushed on varnish, and is seldom enough to get an even gloss and reasonable protection. These will require just as many coats as I recommended for the Waterlox.

As far as enhancing the color of mahogany, this depends heavily on what kind of look you are seeking. Present day Honduran mahogany is mostly very much lighter than the mahogany we see in antiques, which was mostly made from Cuban or Dominican mahogany which was both denser and darker in color. Consequently, when I have made mahogany period reproductions I have dyed and stained the mahogany to look more like the antiques. It's a multi-step process--first dying the mahogany to establish the basic color, and then adding some depth to the finish by sealing the dyed wood and then using a pigmented stain to color the pores a bit differently, a process that adds a lot of depth to the finish. Adds a lot to the work involved, but also to the results.

[Anne Gray]

Whether you use an oil-based or water borne top coat, if you choose to wipe it on, figure about three-four coats per "brushed" coat for the equivalent build. But they can go on frequently (desirable with anything with polyurethane to avoid sanding between coats) so your actual finish time isn't extended all that much.

Jim- thanks! I'm a little confused by what you said about sanding. If I wipe on, I dont have to sand between, but if I brush on, I do? IS that just about the amount of product going on at a time, and the thinner coats pull the grain up less?


Steve- I dont want to dye or stain the wood, I just want to deepen/enhance the color a little. My dad had a small amount of the old Flecto plastic oil left over, and applying it to a scrap of the wood just gave it a wet look, like tile sealers do to natural stone tile. This is fairly light honduran mahogany, but I'm not trying to make it look antique.

I'm very intrigued by the Waterlox products. HD did not have any, when I went to look at all the Minwax and Varathane products, but I looked at them online. Given that I dont have a sprayer, it sounds like oil based might be smarter for me than waterbourne in general, and I dont want a "cold look" as Steve described.

Aside form the price, is there any downside to Waterlox? I can apply with cloth, dont have to sand between every single coat? Will it protect the wood as well as polyurethane? I do want durability. I wont abuse the cabinets, but I do cook a lot, so this is not just a pretty kitchen, it is a workplace.

Thanks so much for all of your patience and help.

[Steve Schoene]

About the only place Waterlox gives up any durability to polyurethane would be if you were walking on it. Very satisfactory for even hard used kitchens. Price is about the only downside I see, but this is a place where I believe you get what you pay for. The Satin does a particularly good job of maintaining an even sheen, even when wiping it on. And you don't need to sand between every coat, but you will want to sand every so often just to keep any dust or other "artifacts" from getting out of hand.