Is a helical head on a jointer just a gimmick?

[Lewis Cobb]

I don't want to start a war here, but having never owned either a planer or a jointer, I am trying to learn what's great and what's not in my research of them. I can see the advantage of a helical head in a planer - prevents tear out on highly figured woods. But the jointer - don't most people flip the board at least once going through the planer after it's been jointed? And if there's tear out on the edges, that can be cleaned up with the tablesaw?

I suppose the longevity of the blades and the indexing feature are a plus just like the planer.

Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing other people's take on this subject. I'd like to get both machines with helical heads but I don't want to spend money for no good reason other than it's cool......I've been to that movie before

Thanks for the tips,
Lewis

[Rob Will]

Lewis,
I think your presumption is correct. I have a Byrd head on a 24" planer and a straight knife head on a 24" jointer. Most of the time, I only use the jointer to rough flatten one side. The rest is done in the planer.

Having said that, if I had the opportunity, I would equip my jointer with an insert head of some sort. (mostly because it is quieter and easier to push through). With wide face jointing, there is a lot of knife hitting at the same instant.

Also, when edge jointing, tear-out often happens with grain reversals. Since you can't run that edge through the planer to clean it up, a helical jointer might be nice to have.

Rob

[Gary Keedwell]

Back when I bought my jointer and planer, carbide insert cutting heads were only used in machine shop production shops. They have been using them for years. Unless there is some unexpected collapse in hobby woodworking, the furure will be in carbide inserts.
When I upgrade my shop for retirement (not long from now) I do not ever want to take blades in and out of my machines again. Ah...fiddlin & diddlin with blade adjustments will be nothing but an unpleasant memory.
Gary

[Steve knight]

it's not a gimmick but it may not be needed by most. I use mostly tropicals and the time saved not changing knives is more then worth the cost. I would have to sharpen the knives every month or so now I can go a year between rotating the cutters.

[Craig Thompson]

Lewis,

I upgraded my jointer with a byrd shelix... and love it.. primarily for the the myriads of time saved on blade changes. Much quieter as well.

[Chuck Burns]

I'm getting ready to order a Byrd head for my new PM PJ882 jointer. Why?Because my 15HH planer with the Byrd head is SO quiet in comparison to the jointer. And I hate messing with knives anyway.

[Jack Camillo]

Lewis, good question, good thread. I'm in the same decision making process and following this thread closely. I have heard how quiet the inserts are with planers, but haven't heard in person a comparison with knives, nor have I seen a comparison in the resulting finish. (I saw a demo of a PM planer with the inserts, but they didn't fire up one with knives to show the difference) Hope more owners respond.
jack

[James Phillips]

I have owned both. The helical is quieter, give a better cut, runs much smoother, and most importantly setting the blades is not necessary (they are set when you install them). A knife head jointer makes 3 cuts per rotation with "dead time" between. A helical jointer makes a somewhat more constant cut (more so with face jointing). I think it is well worth the extra $$

[Lewis Cobb]

Good feedback on this question - thanks lads. Helical head it is for the jointer then, based on this. I had not considered the "fiddling and diddling" time associated with setting the knives, but the length of time between changes, and the quality of cut pretty much make it an easy decision - fogetting about the cost of course but as I always tell my wife - "you can't put a price on happiness"

Cheers,
Lewis

[Rob Will]

Lewis, good question, good thread. I'm in the same decision making process and following this thread closely. I have heard how quiet the inserts are with planers, but haven't heard in person a comparison with knives, nor have I seen a comparison in the resulting finish. (I saw a demo of a PM planer with the inserts, but they didn't fire up one with knives to show the difference) Hope more owners respond.
jack

Jack,
If a straight knife machine is extremely sharp, they're not too bad. Once they get slightly dull......they're ear blistering. A board getting hammered by a straight knife really amplifies the noise. Ear protection required.
Rob

[Dixon Peer]

Did I miss it, or did no one mention Tersa head machines? I have a 300mm Tersa head Sueri Alfredo jointer; it has a four knife head, the cutters having edges on two sides. When one side is dull, you remove the knife and turn it around and you're ready to go again. There's no adjustment to do; insert the knives and turn the jointer on and centrifugal force locks them in place. It's great.

[Walt Caza]

Hi Lewis,
In response to your original post, I would like to say that the table saw
is not used to clean up jointed edges, but rather the other way around.
It is pretty standard practice to clean up table-sawn edges with light
passed on the jointer.
In the case of edge tear out on dodgey boards, a slower feedrate through
the jointer can increase the cuts per inch, for a better finish.
Thickness planers offer less flexibility as far as feedrate, although some
models offer 2 speeds.

I am a bit unclear regarding Rob's comment that you cannot run
boards on edge through the thickness planer. It is common practice
in furniture shops to do just that...
for example, stiles and rails for face frames for any cabinet, are
table-sawn one sixteenth inch oversized, then cleaned up on the
planer, with a 1/32" pass on each side, to remove any sawmarks,
and true the sticks up to tight parallel.

Sometimes we may wander off the fence a bit when shoving boards
through the saw, other times we may get burns or chatter from
tired blades, not to mention internal stresses in hardwood.

The planer offers quick forgiveness, and can self-feed many sticks
of similar dimension at once, with the added benefit of a scale to
read out the finished dimensions.

Cleaning up edges on the jointer could possibly take those edges out
of parallel, although the light cuts would minimize such, as would
strong jointer feed technique.

Other thoughts on helix heads that have not been mentioned so far:

edge is about trade-off
HSS will take a keener edge, so starts sharper, but is less durable
carbide starts less sharp, but fades less, and is far more long lasting

the chips produced by inserts facilitate dust collection entrainment

with helix heads it becomes less important to 'read' the grain to determine
feed direction, and shines when dealing with tricky grain turn-around

they claim you get 4 fresh cutting edges with carbide inserts, but
those-who-know say that inserts often break across a corner,
thus killing 2 possible edges...
(I have yet to break one, but wonder if a break can kill a whole insert,
such as across the mounting hole?)

In my own shopping research, I learned that there is a distinction to be
made with helix heads, that is seldom brought up...

If the inserts are mounted around the cutting head in a spiral,
But the inserts meet the wood straight on, this is not true helix...
In a true helix, such as Byrd Shelix, the inserts meet the wood at a
shear angle, which makes all the difference...

think of a pass with a block plane straight on, versus a pass with the
same plane held on a skew angle... night and day

thus many spiral heads are being sold, which lack the crucial benefit
of a shear cut, but that is a function of marketing
(caveat emptor)

I have no connection to Byrd, just a belief their Shelix is a superior option.

Good luck with your homework and tool shopping,
Walt

[Gary Keedwell]

In my own shopping research, I learned that there is a distinction to be
made with helix heads, that is seldom brought up...

If the inserts are mounted around the cutting head in a spiral,
But the inserts meet the wood straight on, this is not true helix...
In a true helix, such as Byrd Shelix, the inserts meet the wood at a
shear angle, which makes all the difference...

think of a pass with a block plane straight on, versus a pass with the
same plane held on a skew angle... night and day

thus many spiral heads are being sold, which lack the crucial benefit
of a shear cut, but that is a function of marketing
(caveat emptor)

I have no connection to Byrd, just a belief their Shelix is a superior option.

Good luck with your homework and tool shopping,
Walt

[/QUOTE]

Walt,
I am glad you brought that subject up. Indeed you are right about the angle of the insert as it cuts the wood. Instead of a "chopping" action you get a "shear" action. Hence it's name "she-lix" ( shear-lix) .
It is my undocumented believe that alot of people have it in their machines right now and don't know the difference. I'm not saying that a conventional straight cutting insert will not do a sufficient job, what I am saying is that there is a significant difference.
Gary

[Rob Will]

Hi Lewis,

I am a bit unclear regarding Rob's comment that you cannot run
boards on edge through the thickness planer. It is common practice
in furniture shops to do just that...
for example, stiles and rails for face frames for any cabinet, are
table-sawn one sixteenth inch oversized, then cleaned up on the
planer, with a 1/32" pass on each side, to remove any sawmarks,
and true the sticks up to tight parallel.

Walt

You are right Walt. Narrow stock will go through the planer just fine on edge. I guess I was referring to those really wide boards.

Rob

[Lewis Cobb]

Thanks for the detailed response Walt. I had not considered the "starts less keen but stays keener longer" issue with carbide. I guess I knew it already from router bits / table saw blades but was not thinking on that path when I started looking at the jointer/planers. And that shear angle business is another very good point.

There's lots to learn here about this stuff but it's an enjoyable task and the end result will be an informed decision