Good News and Bad News

[Vicky Orsini]

I think the problem with ads is that they might lead to the feeling of bias (real or imagined) when discussing products / suppliers / manufacturers. And if someone has an opinion about one of the sponsors that is less than flattering, the forum admin have to take the heat from the sponsor, which might lead to censorship. I've seen it happen on other forums, not just laser forums. Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth.

[Jerry Allen]

Good point, Vicki.

[Denny Rice]

I agree with Vicky on this issue. If I have a problem with a tool built by Delta and Delta is advertising on this site who is to say they cannot come in here and pressure the powers to be remove my post because they don't like it.

[Mike Null]

There is merit to that argument but this is a censored forum. We have the TOS which sets down the rules we live by. Those who choose not to adhere to the rules may be censored or even banned from forum membership.

Realistically, those who would advertise with SMC, should SMC decide to go that route, would do so with their eyes wide open.

[John Keeton]

Oftentimes, however, the motives of an individual aren't known. I have seen clear instances where a company "salts" a forum about it's product. Obviously, that could happen here, but I believe that the motivation to do so is much greater when one has advertising dollars on the line. Business is business, and it isn't always done ethically. I am still in favor of taking other measures with advertising a last resort. It seems that tiered membership or some restrictive use system would be the first option. Does statistical data exist on the number of contributors contributing greater than the $6 versus those that contribute the requested amount? Some of this data might be useful in formulating a plan and making some choices, although I suppose that is something that may need to be done by others.

[Pat Kearney]

Hi Keith
On Nov 8th I contributed through paypal but my profile is still showing as member and not contributor. Did I submit it improperly? Just want to make sure you received it.

Thanks.

PAT

[Jackie Outten]

Pat,

You made your contribution through your business and we had no way to tie it back to your name. I will update you now.

Thanks.

Jackie

[Keith Outten]

The only number this year that is significant is the percentage of our Members that are choosing not to support The Creek. Only 7% of over 9,500 active Members have made a donation which is an extremely poor turnout.

At this point we will pay our bare bones expenses and that is all. The total donated is less than we have ever had, of course we still have 13 days left in this years fund drive so things could get better.

We have seen numerous people donate 25, 50 and even $100.00 this year. These are for the most part the same people who have been carrying the financial load here since October of 2005. Given our huge growth rate since last November I had hoped that the ratio of Members to Contributors would at least remain constant but it has declined.

The handwriting is on the wall folks, the majority don't want a Member Supported Community...they want free. The big issue for me is I cannot support a Community this large at the current pace as a volunteer. Last year we were much smaller and the time required was reasonable, since late last Spring it has become a full time job, Aaron is working on his Doctorate and Jackie is grading papers every night which leaves me to handle most of the work.

Before anyone suggests that I appoint more Administrators to help with the workload I wil tell you it won't work. People will not give up their free time for very long to take a job that kills their woodworking hobby, time with their family and work for so many that don't feel their contribution has value.

We will have to make some changes this year and we will have to consider all of our options before next November so we can make a decision concerning our fate here. I am still dead against commercial advertising because I personally don't like ads in my face or the idea of sponsors having leverage in areas of editorial content. The world doesn't need another advertising based woodworking forum.

John's comment about companies salting forums is true, it happens and we are always on the lookout for that kind of activity here. No doubt some of it gets by us but we try to view as many posts as we can and to track recurring posts that appear to be planted by commercial interests. This is just another of our day to day duties behind the scenes that for the most part goes un-noticed. We also have to constantly defend our server against attacks, the security issues and work that must be performed each month are major tasks. I could go on and on but I think the few people that will actually read this message are already aware of the work required to host The Creek.

It isn't the amount of money that is donated that is important, it is the fact that people will take just a few minutes of their time once each year to show their support for this Community. Even a 50 cent donation would be more than welcome as it shows that people care enough to spend just a couple minutes of their personal time to validate our efforts.

I will promise to continue the best I can this year but next November may be our last unless we can find a model that will provide for our needs and doesn't rest on just my shoulders alone. Aaron and Jackie have been dedicated and loyal supporting this Community for four years but their personal obligations right now are taking a serious toll on their ability to help with the constantly growing workload as we take on an average of 1500 new Members every month.

All of you folks who have been with us for a long time and those who have been so supportive will always have The Creek to visit and enjoy as long as I am able. You must understand that I can't continue to support tens of thousands of new Members and the thousands that continue to join every month.



.

[Pat Kearney]

Thanks Jackie, I never realized that.

Pat

[Mike Hood]

I run two rather large boating forums (using vBulletin as well btw). My suggestion here would be to appoint moderators to each forum. This works very well in keeping the salting down.

I know many websites hope to generate income, but frankly it's not worth the work. Membership Only features will help... but they take away from the overall appeal in a big way.

Additionally, Google adsense is a good way to help make a site self sufficient if the throughput is high like you describe. I used to add banners until we reached our annual expenses, then turn them off. We don't need them at all now.

I'm not sure what your situation is here, but my ENTIRE expenses for the larger of the two sites was $829/yr for bandwidth and hosting. The other is only $128/yr. vBulletin software is only $160.

We're a large site also and have grown through this. Keep it simple and people will stay and you'll prosper. It's tempting to wanna make it a viable income, but I just wanted to encourage you to keep after it, but not to expect it to support you.

[David Lavaneri]

Keith,

I'm not surprised by the lackluster response to the fundraising drive. Especially since you specifically urged people not to pay more than $6.00 per year.

If that suggestion was an effort to shame a larger number of people to contribute, obviously, it didn't work.

You're intensely devoted to this site and you don't want to see the number of people diminish as the result of changing to a subscription format.

Guess what? As the voice of experience, I can say that as soon as you make a mandatory charge for admission, no matter how small, a lot of people will leave, some never to be seen again.

Take it from me. That's the good news!

You'll be left with the people who truly appreciate what you're offering. For the most part, it will be a more professional crowd, consisting of people who are actively working in this industry and newcomers who are serious about entering the industry.

I should quickly add that, of those who leave in protest, a good number will return, once they find other sites lacking; and they will.

You mentioned in a earlier post that SMC has become a for-profit entity.

As such, why would you wait until next November to right what seems to be a sinking ship?

It's a Nike moment. Just do it!

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

PS - I contributed this year, but I'm showing as a 2007 contributor. Probably because the contribution was made under my business name.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks David,

I know that you have been through something similar and are aware of both sides of the issue. For the record I didn't start SawMIll Creek as a business venture and had fully intended to shut it down on October 2005 when our ISP business closed. I agreed to continue because so many friends asked me to keep The Creek online. Compared to today we were very small back then and I have not been prepared for the kind of growth we have seen this year.

We aren't sinking but we are in dire need of some changes. I had hoped that there might be enough financial support this year to hire someone to take over as the Forum Administrator so I could get some relief but that isn't going to happen. I would be happy to just scale back a bit and gain some control of our unbelievable growth rate.

I have suggested to our Moderators that we close the doors for awhile and only accept new Members when they had a reference from an existing Member but our Staff hates the idea.

No matter what I am going to keep my word for the coming year. The Creek will remain very much as it is now but I will be planing on major changes for November 2008. I think I can handle a smaller system, something in line with what you have done and I consider that to be the best path for us next year.

I am going to periodically turn on and off new registrations here folks for a period of time in an effort to throttle our growth rate.

.

[Keith Outten]

I run two rather large boating forums (using vBulletin as well btw). My suggestion here would be to appoint moderators to each forum. This works very well in keeping the salting down.

I know many websites hope to generate income, but frankly it's not worth the work. Membership Only features will help... but they take away from the overall appeal in a big way.

Additionally, Google adsense is a good way to help make a site self sufficient if the throughput is high like you describe. I used to add banners until we reached our annual expenses, then turn them off. We don't need them at all now.

Mike,

I work a full time job during the day and have a reasonably successful part time sign business going when I can find the time to get in my workshop. I'm not wealthy but I don't need to make money from The Creek...I won't work here any longer for free. Continuing to work for people that won't contribute toward our financial needs has to stop. Effective immediately I will only be able to provide for those who have made contributions. This may sound harsh but it is nothing but cruel reality...there are way to many people here for me to provide administrative support.

We have always had Moderators assigned to each Forum, it would be impossible to operate without them.

.

.

[Bill Cunningham]

Another site I belong to, (a hobby related one) simply turns off the search function for non contributors.. Search uses a lot of resources and 'should' be restricted to contributors. After non contributing members have been been helped with their particular problem, (in the good usual spirit of the creek) they can then be directed to the donation page where they can donate, and then 'search' for previously answered questions, and the incredible amount of general information available. After that, they may get the idea.. Or at least 'some' will

[Mark Winlund]

A couple of suggestions: send an automated "thank you" to everyone that contributes.

Also, you can't be all things to all people. You have to decide what type of member you are going to appeal to. You have the professionals, with many years in the engraving and sign business. You also have the "newbies" that start by saying:

"I just bought a laser. What do I do next? It doesn't turn on. I want to make lots of money, and only work on Saturdays. Please be specific, and send me a list of steps for my machine, and how to be successfull."

I think the forums should be oriented towards the first group, and not the second. I am constantl amazed by the number of new members that jump in without having ever done any research or reading about engraving or lasers, and expect to be spoon fed until they are rich.

Also, If there are no posts by someone for six months, drop them from the membership. The forums have to work by participation. The membership rolls (and the amount of work to keep the forum running) would drop dramatically.

Make the forum fee based... say $1 per month. No professional is going to quibble about this, especially if there is enough usefull content. (I dropped another engraving forum when they insisted on fees. The reason? Not enough useful information... too many beginners, too much politics, etc.

The forums are a business tool. No more, and no less. Like any other business tool, I won't buy it unless it helps my business. This one does. It is why I contributed.

A side note: I think the policy on links is a little draconian. Links to ebay items related to our business should be allowed as well as links to engraving suppliers. You don't have to click on the link.

Mark