PM 2000 -vs- PM 66?

[Rich Bybee]

Hi All,
This is my first thread! My name's Rich and I'm in Denver. I've been reading all I can lately, as I'm looking for new woodworking gear. I need a TS and would like a planer, and jointer to go along with it. I've really enjoyed browsing your site over the last week or so since I found it!! You folks have a great and informative forum!

I'm shopping for a TS and for the life of me I can't figure out why the PM 66 is selling for more dollars than the PM 2000 on Amazon.com.

If someone could educate me on this, I'd surely appreciate it!!

On the plus side, I just found out that the woodworkers show is in Denver this weekend and I'll get to go ogle all the cool stuff and actually be in the market for buying some things!! !! WOOT!

Thanks for any help!
Rich

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Welcome Rich.

The 66 is a little heavier and I believe it is still made in America. 2000 has built in castors, riving knife, etc.

[Eugene A. Manzo III]

The PM 66 is a heavier machine and is still built in the USA versus China
for the PM 2000 I think both Machines are very nice. just dont eat the paint on the one from China you might get sick

[David Weaver]

I'll bet if you took 20 of each and measured the flatness of the tables, the runout on the arbor flange, the accuracy of the adjustments ...

... you'd find the PM 66 fares a lot better.

Even without the riving knife, I'd take a PM66 over a PM2000 without question, and I'd pay several hundred bucks more for the pleasure, too.

[Chuck Burns]

When FWW did their test of 10" cabinet saws the measurements of the 2000 where better than the 66. The 66 doesn't have a riving knife; that alone would lead me to the 2000. I think I'm correct in saying the 2000 comes from Taiwan, not China. I think China is today where Taiwan was 30 or 40 years ago as far as metal and QC.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I'll bet if you took 20 of each and measured the flatness of the tables, the runout on the arbor flange, the accuracy of the adjustments ...

... you'd find the PM 66 fares a lot better.

Have you actually done this or read about anyone that's done this? Just curious as to the basis of this supposition.

[David Weaver]

How many saws did they measure? I'm guessing 1? I may sound like a cynic here, but I don't really trust FWWs reviews of saws as law, and I think their addition of reader reviews has been the best part of the magazine.

I would still take my chances on a 66.

I have a delta hybrid made in china, and my WW buddy has a PM 66.

He has no measurable runout at the arbor flange, and less than 0.001" at the edge of the saw plate on a forrest WWII TK (and who knows if that's the saw or the blade?). Every time we move anything on his saw to the stops, up or down, it's always dead on.

I think you're right - Taiwan is where it's made.

And you're right on Chinese quality. My delta hybrid (Made in China) is passable, but it's no marvel in terms of accuracy. I have no qualms about buying Taiwanese tools, but that's the last chinese tool I'll get until I start seeing opinions in spades about their quality improving.

Don't ge me wrong - I would trade my delta saw for a PM2000 in a second, but I never saw any PM66 QC issues like we've seen with PM2000 posts here and elsewhere - where runs of saws had some serious issues.

[David Weaver]

Done it only on one saw - dial indicator on arbor flange and at the edge of a forrest WWII TK 40 tooth. Saw plate runout measured less than 0.001".

This is on a 2001 PM66 with five horsepower.

Only started measuring other peoples' tools after I got a runout reading of 0.002" at the arbor flange and over 0.007" at the saw plate on a new delta hybrid (36-717) that I had delievered - hoping to find that was common.

I thought I had a serious problem when that PM was the first other saw that I checked. There is a history of posts on here from when I did it, I thought I was going to have to send my saw back until I called delta and they said their tolerance for arbor flange runout was 0.0025" (which seems like a huge amount to me).

Same thing with adjustments and stops - the wixey always has the PM66 within a tenth of a degree of wherever it says it is, and who knows if that's wixey error?

My delta hybrid isn't close to that.

Now, as per the 20 saw measurements, I can't vouch for doing that and don't know anyone who has. You, me and everyone else have to go with what's available to us. There was a rash of posts on the PM2000 several months ago - poor adjustment and with the saw going out of alignment with the miter slots by a significant amount. Have you ever seen a post like that about a run of PM66s? It's not like there's a dearth of them out there.

The 66 has been out for a long time, it's a known quality, and it has an undented reputation for (when new) being the most accurate hobbyist saw you can get. The PM2000 is newer and may get to that, but what information is available hasn't suggested that it's there yet.

[Nathan Conner]

When researching new saws, I looked at a floor model of the 2000 and 66 side by side. Aside from a slight paint difference, there were few variations except the most noticeable - the grind/finish on the top was WAY Nicer on the 66. The 2000 looked like it had been finished with 100 grit, where the 66 had the fit and finish on it like you'd get from a good Rottenstone rubbing. Shiny, different quality metal, lighter, brighter, smoother top. The motor was American made in the 66, and some off brand for the 2000.

I still went with the 2000. The price difference and the riving knife/mobility were the kickers for me. The only complaint I have is the integrated table isn't much - will need rebuilt at some point, and I've banged the holy crap outta my hands several times when I get those handwheels spinning to change height/angle - and a few other times wedging my hands between the blade-height-wheel and the underside of the table at a good cranking speed. There's always a LOUD 4-letter exclamation, a deep breath, and twisting around to use my other hand to slowly lower the blade back down again. And I wonder why, yet again, I forgot that on a 45 and full blade height, your hands WILL get wedged in there if you're not careful. Don't know if this is an issue with the 66, too.

Overall, there's a slightly better feel to the 66, and a slightly different running sound. But, I didn't feel that it was worth the 3-400 bucks, and didn't think I'd notice when I got home.

I was right. I don't. It's such a HUGE step up from my old C-man, I grin every time I look at it or turn it on or lean up against it with a cup of coffee, surveying my domain.

[John Thompson]

Done it only on one saw - dial indicator on arbor flange and at the edge of a forrest WWII TK 40 tooth. Saw plate runout measured less than 0.001".

This is on a 2001 PM66 with five horsepower.

Only started measuring other peoples' tools after I got a runout reading of 0.002" at the arbor flange and over 0.007" at the saw plate on a new delta hybrid (36-717) that I had delievered - hoping to find that was common.

I thought I had a serious problem when that PM was the first other saw that I checked. There is a history of posts on here from when I did it, I thought I was going to have to send my saw back until I called delta and they said their tolerance for arbor flange runout was 0.0025" (which seems like a huge amount to me).

Same thing with adjustments and stops - the wixey always has the PM66 within a tenth of a degree of wherever it says it is, and who knows if that's wixey error?

My delta hybrid isn't close to that.

Now, as per the 20 saw measurements, I can't vouch for doing that and don't know anyone who has. You, me and everyone else have to go with what's available to us. There was a rash of posts on the PM2000 several months ago - poor adjustment and with the saw going out of alignment with the miter slots by a significant amount. Have you ever seen a post like that about a run of PM66s? It's not like there's a dearth of them out there.

The 66 has been out for a long time, it's a known quality, and it has an undented reputation for (when new) being the most accurate hobbyist saw you can get. The PM2000 is newer and may get to that, but what information is available hasn't suggested that it's there yet.

And I have to agree with you, David. When they first came out they were hailed as the "coming of the Messiah" with the riving knife and built on mobility kit. And I am a hard-core fan of riving knives as I had one on a saw for 5 years.

But.. I also wondered why was the PM 2000 less expensive than the older 66 after they had to invest in re-tooling to allow adding a riving knife as the guts have to be changed? Then the rash of post you mentioned over several sites with a little quirk here and a little quirk there on the 2000. The quirks added up to several quirks.

Yesterday I personally crawled under a 2000 and the 66 sitting beside it at Stone Mountain Power Tool while picking up some filters. I did not do any run-outs or check for table flatness, etc. with machinist equipment. I just had a general look at the guts and took the controls for a spin around the block.

With that alone... the mystery of why the PM 66 cost more than the 2000 was answered for me. The 66 is heavier (more cast iron), had better mahining in general and that related to smoother controls for raise-lower.. angle.. etc. It didn't cross my mind to see if the motors were by the same manufacturer.

But from just causually going over both, if I were offered a free 66 or 2000 today... I personally would take the 66 as I only rip on a TS with CC done on a 12" SCMS making the riving knife less of a safety issue. I would simply throw away the plastic "thingy" and add an over-head crown guard which I can make in 30 minutes and achieve the same goal as again.. I only rip.

So... I see some merit in what you have said even though I did not do any mechanical checking with machinist measures, only a visual. But that was enough to explain to me personally why the 66 cost more.

Sarge..

[Douglas Robinson]

I owned an old 5 HP three phase PM66. I sold it about 5 years ago. It was a beast and could take a beating and come back for more! I didn't have 3 phase power at the time and putting it in was unfeasible so I sold it.

I bought a PM2000 this year. First the downside....There is NO downside! I love this machine! The riving knife is great! I got the low profile one as well for an extra $30. The cam lever attachment for the riving knife is brillant. The blade-lock mechanism that requires no extra tool is also well thought out. It comes with a real wrench for tighten/loosneing the arbor nut. Not some punched out piece of sheet metal. The internal dust collection chute is wonderful. The built in casters are a dream for my one-car garage shop. Fit and finish have been top notch. It passed the nickel test right out of the box. If I could change one thing I might make the access door out of metal and not plastic, but it does make removal easy during maintenance.

My 2 cents.

Doug

[Rich Bybee]

Thanks very much for the information! I didn't realize that the 66 was made in the US, and I missed that the 66 was slightly heavier.

I'm really very unsure which way I'm going to go with a saw, not even sure that I want a cabinet saw at this time. Like many of you, my shop space is at a premium. Still doing a lot of looking around and reading everything I can find.

Thanks again!

[Brian Clevenger]

Don't forget the used market. I was able to pick up a late 90s model 66 for about 1/3 of retail.

As far as which I would get. I've always wanted a 66. I didn't want a Unisaw, contractor saw, or made overseas saw. Just a good 66 from McMinnville, TN.

BTW, they don't make the 66 in the old McMinnville foundries any longer.

[Bob Feeser]

Yes PM66 is made in America, and PM2000 is built in Taiwan. I have the PM66 year 2004. The rep from Powermatic said the PM66 was the last item built here. He also mentioned that the guys building them were perturbed losing jobs overseas.

My year 2004 PM66 had no less than 6 assembly problems that I had to redo. One of them, was the attaching plate for the top, that is welded to, and sits on top of the cabinet. It has the slots for the bolts to go through, that hold on the top. The pieces were manufactured beautifully, but the guy who attached the plate, didn't even bother to align it with the base. It was far off enough, you could eyeball it better than that. So I had to remove the cast iron top, which is only a few bolts, and ream/enlarge the slots. That was neccessary to get the blade in perfect alignment with the miter slot. It wouldn't align without doing that.

I think that is the problem that FWW ran into with their review, when they rated the PM2000 higher than the 66 was...If you will notice they had a blade angle misalignment to the miter at .0025 for the leading side, and aft side of the blade. In other words their wasn't any variation, it was exactly the same. BUT it is not their job to re-manfucture the saw. They may have cocked it as far as it would go, but they weren't about to take the top off, and redrill the slot mounts.

I noticed on my Powermatic 8" jointer, and Hollow Chisel mortiser, both made in Taiwan, it came right out of the box, perfectly assembled and set. The 50 cents per hour labor rate definitely impacted the price of the jointer, it was $1800 here, and only $1100 after being made in Taiwan. As Powermatic puts it, we have quality control people over there, to make sure it is made to our specs. It's ashame they can't do the same thing over here. :-)

So I have to say that the PM66, with it's glassy smooth top, and fit and finish is one beautiful saw, after you go through the ag of rebuilding it. I really do believe it is the finest saw out there, or at least one of the best.

We recently had a big thread on the problems some creekers were having with their PM2000, in that, when they raised the blade all the way to the top, it cocked to one side. I mean it was off by .004 or something sizable. A replacement saw was sent, but it did the same thing. My 66 is perfectly true, no matter how high you raise the blade.

As far as the problem that FWW magazine had in the shootout, with blade/miter slot alignment, after reaming the attaching slots, I adjust the top the way Forrest WWII blade instructions say, with the rear of the blade, exactly .001 wider from the fence. I guess they don't want the teeth re-kissing the workpiece on the way out. Anyhow, that is how exact this thing is now. I got it perfect, not off by a thousandth, then let out the rear edge by 1 thou. By the way, reaming is easy, because it is only through the thicker sheet metal top plate, once you remove the cast iron top.

Gloat Warning: I was thinking at some point I would like to publish a video of the PM66 in action. Ok, this is a gloat, but when people come over, I take a shiny new penny, and park it on the top of the saw, out of the way of where the wind might move from the blade turning, actually a few inches in front of the blade, and off about 3 inches to the left of it, and then turn on the 5hp monster. It instantly clicks to full rev, just like clicking on a tape recorder. The penny just sits there. After about 20 seconds, enough to prove the point, but not to rub it in, I reach over and turn off the saw. I let it come to a complete stop, then while I am standing completely upright, not bending over, I puff an ever so slight puff of wind toward the penny, even though my mouth is 2 feet away or so, and the penny proceeds to fall right over. We are talking a little tiny puff. It takes so little, getting the penny to stand on end is a challenge, sometimes I invite my guest to stand it up for me. It emphasizes how fragile it is. The trick is to practice the blow to minimize it just right. It is amazing how little it takes to move it. Anyhow, enough of that.

As far as which one to get? They are obviously both great saws. If I had to do it over again, I would still get the 66, I love the polished top. I love the saw, I love the results it gets. Even the stops set at 90 degrees, and 45 degrees, are perfect. I practiced getting the feel just right, so when I crank it all the way to the stops, without forcing it, it aligns the blade just right, not even off by a tenth of a degree. I coat it with WD40, once in awhile, cause it really shows the shine, and prevents the rust. I know wax is better, but it dulls the surface too much.

You can't go wrong with either saw, as long as they have the fully raised blade angle problem worked out. I just was dreaming of a 66 for so long, I had to go with it. Of course the job was made even easier for me, because the PM2000 wasn't even available yet.

Here it is without the motor cover on it yet, when I first got it


And here I am after getting the call on the cell phone, that it had just arrived, and the truck was waiting for me to get home.

[Rob Will]

Excellent post Bob......as usual.

BTW: My PM 74 will stand up a dime but I have to do it with the motor running.

Rob