Grizzly G0513X2 vs G0636X

[Shiraz Balolia]

Can anyone explain the differences between these two saws. I mean besides the obvious stuff like motor size and re-saw height. The G0636X weighs nearly twice the G0513X2 (620lbs vs 352lbs). The motor size difference doesn't account for 268lbs. The G0636X even weighs more than the G0531 which is a 5hp, 21" saw.

IMHO the Grizzly site doesn't really do much to sell the G0636X. I would like to see a better explanation of why this saw is "actually better than any bandsaw on the market in its size range."

Here are some weight differences:
Motor: 93 lbs compared to 48 lbs on the G0514X2
Machine frame: 302 lbs compared to 176 lbs on the G0514X2
Fence: 22 lbs compared to 15.4 lbs on the G0514X2
Table: 89 lbs compared to 55 lbs on the G0514X2
Cast iron wheels: 60.7 lbs compared to 50.6 lbs on the Go514X2.

Also, there is the geared table mechanism which gives extra support to the table for handling very heavy loads.
FYI - the 21" bandsaw frame weighs almost the same as the G0636X.

I am extremely busy and would love to engage in a dialogue about these machines, but am spending mega hours on a special project. This is the best I can do for now.
Thanks for the interest.

[Kevin Wiebe]

Some good information, thank you Shiraz.

If any other users of either the 636 or 531 could comment on the 'usability' of these saws that would be great.

[Justin Bukoski]

Kevin, I think you'll be happy with either one.

I've owned two bandsaws from Grizzly and have been very happy with both of them. I plan on buying the 636 soon. For me resaw height is important for making veneers. I frequently will take a wide board and peel off 1/16" veneers to apply to panels and such. I have a 16" wide piece of gonco alves in the shop right now that is destined to be veneer but I'll have to cut it down to 12" because I don't have the height. I don't bother jointing between slices since I get a pretty smooth cut and I just move the fence and use the same jointed face over and over. If I really need to joint it I'd do it by hand.

I don't really need the extra throat opening for cutting circle and long curved pieces.

Please report back on which way you go. Seems like there are a lot of people interested.

Good luck!

[Dave MacArthur]

Great thread! I've been looking at larger bandsaws for almost a year now, and had decided on the 514x2 as the best value out there--love it's table support and trunnions.

I also posted a thread asking about the 636 and any info on it from users, after it was revealed at the AWFS, but got no responses... this is the first thead on it I've seen here at SMC since it was introduced in Jul. I believe it wasn't available until Nov, so I didn't expect many inputs from users. I'm also very interested in how/why the 636 compares to MM and Laguna, and hope some mag does a review soon (or someone here at SMC!).

[Steve Milito]

I looked at the Griz bandsaw line-up today. The steel frame on the G0636 is at least 50% thicker than another bandsaw with the exception of the massive 24" G0569. The G0566 (which is a 3HP G0531)weighs ~50 Lb less than the 636 despite being a significantly larger machine. I think the steel on the 636 is 3/16", and no more than 1/8" on the 566. The G0514x2 is a nice saw, and a good bargin, but not nearly as massively overbuilt as the G0636.

[Scott Seigmund]

First, I would like to thank Shiraz for shedding some light on the specifications for the G0636X. I think a lot of people are highly interested in this saw. I certainly was, and after reading the claim that it is as good or better than the Italian bandsaws in this class, I set about doing some detailed research. Anyone interested in this saw should download the owner’s manual and spend some time studying the excellent illustrations. The photos and parts illustrations in the manual scale extremely well when enlarged allowing you to get a detailed look at some of the key components of the saw. Still, without being able to physically examine the saw, the pictures can only provide so much information. I sent a list of questions to Grizzly Tech Support and had a reply the following day. Actually I had a reply the same day and answers to my questions the following day. One area that Grizzly has absolutely gotten right is customer service. I so wanted to buy a bandsaw from this company that it really hurts not to. I am the type of customer that will go out of my way to reward a company that respects their customers, and Grizzly is a company that I want to patronize.

So why did I end up buying a Laguna LT18HD? Because I wanted a best-in-class saw and the G0636X is not that saw. The LT18HD is not my perfect saw either, but it comes the closest to having all the features and quality that I expect in a best-in-class tool. Pay particular attention to the word quality in the last sentence. I will also add that Laguna has been a pleasure to deal with through the entire purchase, although their business and sales model is much different than Grizzly’s. I’m not going to cover every single item that influenced my decision, but I will share my thoughts on the big items that made the most difference to me. I actually used a matrix to score different saws on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being the top score.

1. Frame: I think Grizzly has gotten the frame on the G0636 right. It appears to be massive, heavily built, and should easily allow proper tensioning of any blade that will fit. Based on the saws that I looked at back in September when I visited the Grizzly showroom in Bellingham, the fit and finish of the frame should be excellent. I score the frame a 5.

2. Wheels: The wheels look to be heavy and of excellent quality and finish in the user manual, and from the earlier post by Shiraz, they weigh over 30 pounds each. What about the amount of crown in the tires? None of the manufacturers give this specification in their literature, but it is well known that the Italian saws have very little crown, which favors tracking wide blades. This is one of the questions that I asked Grizzly Tech Support. Here is the reply from Angela; “I am showing that the crown on the tire of the G0636X Band Saw is approximately .145, and the tires are vulcanized on the wheel.” That is more than 1/8inch of crown. I’ll give them a 4.

3. Trunnion: The trunnion appears to be a knock-off of the one on the Aggazani 20 inch saw which I regard as the best trunnion design going. I think this is also the same unit as on the G0531 21inch saw which I looked at in the showroom. I give it a 5.

4. Dust Extraction: The G0636X has two dust ports, one of which is a nicely designed dust chamber just below the trunnion. I give dust control a 5.

5. Upper wheel carrier: The three dominant Italian saws all use a very similar design for this critical component; i.e. beautifully machined and fitted castings with a giant shaft to carry the upper wheel. At least on the Laguna, this component also allows for some adjustment other then for blade tracking. The Grizzly part is fabricated out of mild steel that is bent, welded and screwed together. Additionally, the two parts that guide the axel/block assembly are small square bars (#21 in the part breakdown, called a “locate plate”) attached to the folded metal housing by 4 small screws. I have a hard time with the idea that such a fabricated part can be as accurate and smooth-operating as a machined casting. I understand that tolerances and accuracy are not that critical as long as the lower axle has enough mobility to compensate for any inaccuracy of the upper wheel carrier. Still, there is just nothing about this assembly that I can like. It may be effective, but it is quite crude in comparison to the Italian saws. Even Jet now uses machined castings for the upper wheel carrier on it’s 18 inch saw, although it is a much smaller and lighter component than the Italian saws. I give it a 2.

6. Guides: Judging bandsaw blade guides can be pretty subjective. The one thing most of the designs have in common is that they have been around for a long time, and are pretty well proven. The Laguna ceramic guides represent the most innovative thinking in bandsaw guides in many years. While not everyone is fan of the design, most users are overwhelmingly positive in their praise for them. I am obviously one of the fans, and this was a significant factor in my purchase decision. In fact, as far as I’m concerned the price of the G0636X is increased by the cost of these guides, because I would have added them to the G0636X had I purchased it. As for the Grizzly guides, they are neither great nor poor, so I give them a 3.

7. Upper Guide Carrier: There is much variation in the design of this assembly among the various manufactures. I’ll say right up front that any bandsaw manufacturer that wants to have a best-in-class saw should look at this component on the MiniMax MM16. Even the other Italian manufacturers have some catching up to do here, but with the G0636X, Grizzly is not even in the game. I couldn’t tell from the Owner’s manual what material the guide bar on the G0636 is made of, so I asked this question of Grizzly Tech Support; “Is the upper guide shaft a hollow tube or solid bar stock?” Again from Angela; “The upper guide shaft is hollow.” It is hard to be the best-in-class when the competition is using machined/ground solid steel. I also know from examining other saws at Grizzly’s showroom that the rack gear is stamped from fairly thin mild steel and attached to the tube with screws. The housing that supports this guide did not impress me with great quality either. The fit and operation of the hand wheel on all the saws in the showroom seemed wobbly and poorly fitted. Although I was not able to get any measurements, I also felt that the amount of deflection in these guide carrier assemblies was much more than I would like. I gave the G0636X guide carrier a 2.

8. Motor: Here, experience is the best teacher. If we could agree that a U.S. made Baldor motor gets a ranking of 5, then its hard for me to give any Asian made electric motor better than a 3.

9. Price: It never was about price. Certainly if I could get my perfect bandsaw for under $2K, I would be falling all over myself to buy one, and I wouldn’t care where it was made. I paid $830 more for the LT18HD than I would have spent for the G0636X. If I add the cost of Laguna guides to the G0636, the difference is now less than $500 bucks. If the motor fails early, then there is no difference at all in cost. Can I overlook the faults of the G0636 for $500, or even $830? No way! Unlike the blade guides, I can’t fix the Guide Carrier or the Upper Wheel Carrier. The poor quality is built into the tool forever. I’m not buying this saw with the intention of “upgrading” in the future.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope it will provide some useful information to others looking to purchase a high performance bandsaw in this class. I also hope it is useful information for Grizzly Industrial Inc. If Grizzly’s intention is to offer the best bandsaw on the market, then they have come very close, but they have essentially dropped the ball in the endzone on what might have been the game winning touchdown. In my view, the deficiencies of the G0636X are easily corrected at the design and manufacturing level. If the disorganized bandsaw product line is cleaned up into two classes of saws, they could achieve economies of scale on shared components; i.e. a “value” line of bandsaw that mostly consists of products already produced, and a professional line consisting of 14, 17 and 21 inch saws that are truly best-in-class.

Regards,

Scott

[Tim Marks]

great stuff, Scott. Thanks for the detailed analysis. It definitely shows that you have spent alot of time agonizing over this purchase, and brought up some comparison points that I would have never dreamed of.

I hope Shiraz Balolia can break away from his special project (please throw us a bone... is it something that I will want to buy? I just sold my house, and....oh wait, I have almost NO shop space where I live now... rats!) to provide a response to some of your critiqe. Who knows, maybe we will have to call the G0636X2 in 2008 the "Scott Seigmund model"...

[Steve Milito]

Thanks Scott. That really helps as I look at bandsaws.

[Tom Godley]

Great stuff Scott - Thanks.

I also am looking to buy a new saw in the next few weeks - it is very hard to tell the important differences between the players. The inability for me to go and to see them, just adds to the problem.

Also, the need for a future upgrade (the guides to you) can make the price difference of the less expensive saw not worth the savings.

After some looking around I thought I would just order the MM16 - They sent me a quote last week -- but I think I should spend a little more time on this.

With the cost of the HD being what it is - you must have looked at the MM16 and an Agazzani ?? - do you have any thoughts with regard to them.

Thanks again for spending the time to write down your thoughts

[Lee Hingle]

Scott,
FYI, I just checked the Grizzly site and Laguna site, the Grizzly G0636 is $1995 and the Laguna LT18 is $3100 so there is an $1100 difference in the two saws now (both prices are before shipping). Sounds like you got a great deal on the Laguna or maybe they had a price increase?
Lee

[Tom Godley]

Quick question -- I do not see a LT18HD listed on the web.

Was it the 18 -- They do have a LT16HD?

Thanks


TAG

[Scott Seigmund]

Tom and Lee, thanks for the kind feedback.

As an ex-professional woodworker, I learned a long time ago that there is rarely any real economy in trying to save money on equipment purchases if it means compromising quality. In my experience, quality in woodworking tools (both portable and stationary) is highly correlated to performance and ease of use. When I was poor, in the early days of my business, I purchased several Grizzly machines. I came to view them as a “kit”, and ended up basically disassembling, tuning, fitting, fabricating, and fixing them until they worked. I also found out when I eventually upgraded everything, that the resale value was virtually nonexistent. I remember the painful economic lesson of selling a 20 year old, worn out Powermatic 66 saw for more than a Grizzly jointer, planer and small shaper combined. I know that Grizzly tools today are magnitudes better than when I bought these early tools, but I’m not sure the resale value stigma has improved much. Resale value is a hard thing to quantify when making a purchase decision, but if you find yourself having to “upgrade” later because of too many disappointments in a “value” oriented tool, I promise you will never forget the lesson a second time. FWIW, NEVER buy a tool that is less expensive than a better tool with the notion in the back of your mind that you “can make it work”. With the G0636X, Grizzly has the foundation of a world class saw. Unfortunately they compromised significantly on a couple of key components, and these are components that cannot be upgraded by the owner even if he wanted to. To me this more than erases any initial savings. When I find myself looking at a machine and thinking about how I would reengineer it, I know it’s time to look at something else.


Yes, I seriously considered the MM16 and the Aggazani 16 and 18 inch saws. In my scoring matrix, the MM16 was nearly tied with the LT16HD and LT18. I wish they made an 18 inch saw, as this is the optimal capacity for my needs. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get a response to my request for quotes from either vendor. This doesn’t bode well for a guy living in Anchorage, AK, so this narrowed the options to Grizzly and Laguna. Both companies have experience shipping equipment to the last frontier and had very competitive shipping quotes. I remember looking at Aggazani saws when I was buying tools from Adwood in High Point, NC. They are great saws, but I can’t tell that they have seen any development for several years. Maybe if it isn’t broken it doesn’t need fixing! Still there are some features that I would like to see on these saws.

Sorry for my error on the LT18 “HD”. It is simply the LT18, and is the same thing as the LT16HD, just 2 inches more capacity. The “Heavy Duty” version of the LT18 is called the Resaw Master and does not handle blades smaller than 3/8 inch. The $3100 is the ‘list’ price for the saw. Laguna is always running specials, and I negotiated a price for just the saw, as I did not need another dust collector (the November special was for a saw and dust collector). Laguna also gives good discounts at trade shows. I would wait for a special or attend a show if possible. Of course with Grizzly, the price is the price. No negotiating. As noted in my earlier post, it’s a different business model.

-Scott

[Lee Hingle]

Hi Scott,
I agree with your points completely about price. I bought a 20" grizzly planer (starting out in business - read: poor - seems you can understand that. Nice machine but it's worth every bit of $1150. The resale concept never entered my mind but you are absolutely correct - I see the gold stuff go for top dollar every day on the 'bay and the Grizz stuff goes for the average 50-60% if it's in top condition.

I appreciate your taking the time to post your candid views on the bandsaws. I have dealt first hand with Laguna and have been disappointed with their customer service - however the product is very,very well built. (I put their TSS sliding table on my Powermatic '66). Maybe when the time comes to get the bandsaw I will give them another shot.
Thanks,
Lee

[Ed Beers]

2. Wheels: The wheels look to be heavy and of excellent quality and finish in the user manual, and from the earlier post by Shiraz, they weigh over 30 pounds each. What about the amount of crown in the tires? None of the manufacturers give this specification in their literature, but it is well known that the Italian saws have very little crown, which favors tracking wide blades. This is one of the questions that I asked Grizzly Tech Support. Here is the reply from Angela; “I am showing that the crown on the tire of the G0636X Band Saw is approximately .145, and the tires are vulcanized on the wheel.” That is more than 1/8inch of crown. I’ll give them a 4.

If you are only intending to use the saw with a resaw blade then the crown isn't a plus but I'm not sure it hurts. If you want to use a narrow blade to cut curves, you will wish you had it. Assuming that the crowned tire works well with a wide blade also, I think the crowned tire is the one that should be getting a 5.

5. Upper wheel carrier: The three dominant Italian saws all use a very similar design for this critical component; i.e. beautifully machined and fitted castings with a giant shaft to carry the upper wheel. At least on the Laguna, this component also allows for some adjustment other then for blade tracking. The Grizzly part is fabricated out of mild steel that is bent, welded and screwed together. Additionally, the two parts that guide the axel/block assembly are small square bars (#21 in the part breakdown, called a “locate plate”) attached to the folded metal housing by 4 small screws. I have a hard time with the idea that such a fabricated part can be as accurate and smooth-operating as a machined casting. I understand that tolerances and accuracy are not that critical as long as the lower axle has enough mobility to compensate for any inaccuracy of the upper wheel carrier. Still, there is just nothing about this assembly that I can like. It may be effective, but it is quite crude in comparison to the Italian saws. Even Jet now uses machined castings for the upper wheel carrier on it’s 18 inch saw, although it is a much smaller and lighter component than the Italian saws. I give it a 2.

When I was shopping for a bandsaw a few years ago, the bracing for upper axle carrier guides was one place where the Italian saws really stood out. The Grizzly saws looked pretty good compared to other Asian saws (Jet included). These aren't really a high precision application where you are going to have two cast iron surfaces scraped to mate. I don't see any obvious reason that a cast axle carrier is better or that a fabricated one is cheaper. Execution will make a bigger difference than the materials. You can probably count on the Laguna's execution being very good in this area. The Grizzly is more of an unknown.

I also note that the Grizzly has a quick tension release lever. I view this a real plus and it deserves a little extra consideration as does the window so you can observe tracking.

6. Guides: Judging bandsaw blade guides can be pretty subjective. The one thing most of the designs have in common is that they have been around for a long time, and are pretty well proven. The Laguna ceramic guides represent the most innovative thinking in bandsaw guides in many years. While not everyone is fan of the design, most users are overwhelmingly positive in their praise for them. I am obviously one of the fans, and this was a significant factor in my purchase decision. In fact, as far as I’m concerned the price of the G0636X is increased by the cost of these guides, because I would have added them to the G0636X had I purchased it. As for the Grizzly guides, they are neither great nor poor, so I give them a 3.

Obviously you need guides that work well for the blades and operations you intend to perform. The Laguna guides came on my LT18 and have worked well for me but I am not convinced that they are the one true guide and no other will do. They don't exactly scream value to me if you are buying them to retrofit a saw.

7. Upper Guide Carrier: There is much variation in the design of this assembly among the various manufactures. I’ll say right up front that any bandsaw manufacturer that wants to have a best-in-class saw should look at this component on the MiniMax MM16. Even the other Italian manufacturers have some catching up to do here, but with the G0636X, Grizzly is not even in the game. I couldn’t tell from the Owner’s manual what material the guide bar on the G0636 is made of, so I asked this question of Grizzly Tech Support; “Is the upper guide shaft a hollow tube or solid bar stock?” Again from Angela; “The upper guide shaft is hollow.” It is hard to be the best-in-class when the competition is using machined/ground solid steel. I also know from examining other saws at Grizzly’s showroom that the rack gear is stamped from fairly thin mild steel and attached to the tube with screws. The housing that supports this guide did not impress me with great quality either. The fit and operation of the hand wheel on all the saws in the showroom seemed wobbly and poorly fitted. Although I was not able to get any measurements, I also felt that the amount of deflection in these guide carrier assemblies was much more than I would like. I gave the G0636X guide carrier a 2.

I don't see any reason that a solid rod is superior to a hollow tube given proper sizing and wall thickness. I think a square guide bar (Grizzly) is probably a better concept because it will be better at controlling rotational force than a round guide bar that is located by the clamping flat. I'm not exactly overawed by the Laguna's provision for adjusting the guide bar to be exactly parallel with the blade and the blade guard always seemed kind of kludgy. It is rigid when clamped down though.

I think your evaluation criteria for the upper guide carrier are off base. I would favor something more performance based.

8. Motor: Here, experience is the best teacher. If we could agree that a U.S. made Baldor motor gets a ranking of 5, then its hard for me to give any Asian made electric motor better than a 3.

There is no magic that says good motors can only be made in the US. I don't see either of these motors working up a sweat. Grizzly probably has some numbers but I would guess the odds of your motor failing prematurely are nowhere near 1 in 10. If it were that high your expected cost for a motor replacement would only be around $40.

9. Price: It never was about price. Certainly if I could get my perfect bandsaw for under $2K, I would be falling all over myself to buy one, and I wouldn’t care where it was made. I paid $830 more for the LT18HD than I would have spent for the G0636X. If I add the cost of Laguna guides to the G0636, the difference is now less than $500 bucks. If the motor fails early, then there is no difference at all in cost. Can I overlook the faults of the G0636 for $500, or even $830? No way! Unlike the blade guides, I can’t fix the Guide Carrier or the Upper Wheel Carrier. The poor quality is built into the tool forever. I’m not buying this saw with the intention of “upgrading” in the future.

I don't think you or I have enough information to really evaluate the quality of either the guide carrier or the wheel carrier. Just because Grizzly made different materials choices doesn't mean that the result isn't as good or better. Or they could suck. The proof is in using it.

While you are speculating on the cost of some deficiences, note that only the Grizzly comes with lifting lugs. What is the value of not dropping your saw?

Regards,

Ed

[Shiraz Balolia]

I just had to take some time to respond to Scott’s "evaluation" of the G0636X saw without ever having laid eyes on it.

1. Crown on the saw is 3 mm (.125"). This is a good crown for both resawing as well as regular bandsaw applications. There are no plans to change the crown as it works really well.
2. Upper wheel carrier (part #21). Actually the "small square" bars you refer to are fairly substantial bars and plenty strong to last several lifetimes. It is hardly practical to evaluate a part based off an exploded view of a parts list. Those renderings are never to scale.
3. Guides – Ceramic versus double ball bearing (on G0636X) versus flat disc (Euro Style) versus large iron wood "dowel" type are all subjective and completely a user preference. Some people don’t like the ceramic because they spark if you have a bad blade. I personally prefer the heavy-duty double ball bearing ones that are on the G0636X.
4. Upper guide carrier. I must apologize for Angela’s mistake in misinforming you that this is hollow. It is actually solid steel bar stock machined to 1 3/16" square. She is getting "acquainted" with that saw a little more personally today.
5. The rack gear is 1/8" thick plate that has hardened teeth.
6. Motor is another subjective issue. Baldors are good motors, but the motor on this saw comes from the best motor factory in Taiwan and they cost substantially more than other Taiwan motors. Plus it is 5 HP on the G0636X versus 4.5 HP on your saw.
7. The upper wheel shaft on the G0636X is pretty heavy-duty by any standards – 1 ¼". The wheel has double sealed ball bearings and both upper and lower wheels are fully balanced. Attached are some photos we took of the saw this morning.
8. Does your Laguna have a geared tilting table that also acts as a second stability point for table flex? We would love to do a table flex test between your saw and ours. For that matter, between any saw on the market and ours.
9. Perhaps you may be able to explain where your saw cut corners on weight as it weighs about 110 lbs less than the G0636X.

Please see the attached photos of various parts of the saw taken this morning.

http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_1.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_2.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_3.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_4.jpg
http://images.grizzly.com/shiraz/G0636x/G0636x_5.jpg