Cheap dovetail saws

[Marcus Ward]

I recently purchased a couple of affordable dovetail saws for under 20$ each. A 2 cherries and a ECE, both are gents saw style. Both apparently used the same factory to produce the blades which were less than stellar. The 2 cherries saw says professional quality on the side so you know right away it's not.

The blades featured a tooth pattern reminiscent of a tyrannosaurus, it looked like this: ^^^^^^^^^ . They were symmetrical and looked stamped or roughly produced and weren't very sharp. They weren't japanese style either. I think they cut by virtue of the fact that there were a lot of them. 10 strokes (5 forward, 5 back) produced a cut in pine end grain about 1/4" long. Basically they were useless.

The other night I resharpened the 2 cherries as a rip saw and it functions a LOT better. 10 strokes produces 7/8" cut in the same piece, and it's all around generally better. Last night I filed the ECE into a crosscut and it performs much better as well.

I am not a saw expert by any means but I am pretty sure the dinosaur tooth pattern is not a good one. The saws are useful now but I'd only purchase one with the intent to recut the teeth. Otherwise, save your money for a better saw. Anyone who can comment on the tooth pattern of these is welcome. I will probably learn something.

Here is a pic of the 2 saws along with my disston tenon saw that absolutely rules the roost in terms of cutting.

[Danny Thompson]

I bought my first real handsaw a few weeks ago, when I was in Atlanta. I have seen the two you reviewed above and wondered if they were worth trying. In the end, I went with one recommended in a recent FWW article, a Japanese Dozuki called the "Dozuki Z Saw" ($41 at Rockler and Woodcraft).

I don't have anything to compare it to. All I can say is that I get a thrill every time I use it. It cuts like a hot knife in butter. So far, I've used it only for test cuts, as I am still working on my technique, learning to cut straight, and, thanks to the Gary Rogowski clip on the FWW site, making a run at dovetails.

Maybe someday I'll get my hands on a Disston.

Nice bench, Marcus.

[Marcus Ward]

I have a nice dozuki also but I have a hard time controlling it for precision stuff, plus it seems like it cuts crosscut a lot better than it rips, making me think it's not really what it's supposed to be. Maybe I've just been pushing western style saws too long.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Marcus, I have something similar to your gents saw. I purchased a Crown saw-Sheffield England, a while back and then put a pistol grip handle on it. Like you I resharpened the teeth to rip. It works better now. Until about a month ago I had nothing to compare it against, but then I visited Joe Meazle and tried a couple of really nice joinery saws he has (I forget what make), now those were sweet. I think the quality of steel doesn't make a huge difference, it's all in the sharpening.
I used to do all my sharpening on a wooden vise (Tage Frid style), but now I have an iron saw vise (thanks to Joe) so I am going to take another crack at resharpening the DT/joinery saw.

[John Guarino]

I'd urge you to try it. You won't ruin the saw and you will gain a useful skill.

I, too, had a Crown DT saw that would not perform. I read a few posts on filing saws, thought I understood them, and decided to try it.

Lost story short, it turns out that a saw can cut well even if the teeth are imperfect. It will follow a line if you start it right. No need to rehandle it, unless you have your own reasons.

Then comes the confidence factor. Once you have made those small teeth functional on a $20 saw, you can tackle standard 4-7 TPI rip or 8-12 TPI XC. If you have an extra rip saw but you need a XC, you can have it in an hour. As you get better with practice, you can even turn stamped teeth into a tool that will cut straight.

And when you encounter a really good (not always expensive) saw, you'll have a sense of what's good about it.

My .02 worth.

[Marcus Ward]

John you're right on all counts. I've got a disston d8 I picked up at a flea market for 3$ that I sharpened 7 tpi rip and it's a great performer. I've got another d8 I'm going to sharpen 8 tpi crosscut when i get around to it. I don't use the big saws much. Either way, it's not a very hard skill, just one you SHOULD have.

[John Goodridge]

I believe the tooth style is called a peg tooth.

[Marcus Ward]

You're right, it is called peg tooth, I found it the other day. That tooth style isn't very useful.

[harry strasil]

FWIW, I have a real old dovetail saw with the round handle as shown above. I have it sharpened 16 ppi, and in soft pine. one stroke will go the full depth of the blade, remove the saw and you can't get a razor blade to enter the cut from the side.

This is the second time I have heard reference to peg tooth, I filed an old disston 8ppi "PUG" tooth which looks similar to what you show, it is the sawingest thing you ever saw, cuts faster on the back stroke than the push stroke if you remember to put pressure on the back stroke. If I remember correctly I saw the "PUG" tooth reference in either the early Audels book set, or the reprint of the Bernard E. Jones reprint set.

FWIW, when I started out with the old tools and Hand Tool WWing, I bought some old disstons at a flea mkt and had them sharpened by a proffessional saw sharpening service. One time was enough. I could make nice curved cuts, but had a devil of a time making a straight cut.

That was about the time I came across the Old Audel set in an Antique mall. I have a library of old Audel and any other old type of Old Trade Manuals I can find. I love to read and have a collection I am guessing contains a thousand or more books, not sure of the count as the only ones that are in a bookshelf are the trade manuals, the rest are hither and yon in cardboard boxes, and if I can't find any new ones, mostly westerns I start on a cardboard box of previously read ones. I average about 4 to 8 books a week, depending on how my pain factor is for the week. Oops got off track rambling on.

I never try to read an old trade manual from cover to cover. The best way for me seems to be just leafing thru one and if something (picture, line drawing, heading) catches my eye or peeks my interest, I read that part. And I use them for reference. I have a problem I start looking for the answer till I find it. That way I retain most everything I read easily. (Example, when I got my first Stanley 55, I had already been using a 45 for some time a type 2. I remembered seeing some instructions in one of the Bernard E. Jones books. When I found what I was looking for. I was amazed, what I found was the most complete set of instructions you could ever hope to find, I am not sure how many pages are devoted to the set up and use of the 55, but I copied the pages and put them in a little book form to keep with my 55 plane.

After my initial shock at how the freshly sharpened saws cut, I started in on the old manuals and having already acquired a Disston saw filing vise complete with the attached guide for holding the file at the right tooth angle and fleam angle I started experimenting.

After I went to the saw shop and watched the process used to machine sharpen several saws. The machine retooths and sets the saw in one operation then is filed. I did some researched the saws I had had sharpened. Results were an uneven set, more on one side than the other, Burrs from the filing were outstanding in their roughness, way too much set resulting in a much too wide kerf that let the saw flop around like a chicken with its head off.

I took one of my saws and removed all set, jointed the teeth a bit, they were not all the same height, retoothed the saw filing till the bright flat spot from jointing was just gone, setting the fleam angle I thought I wanted and proceeded to resharpen the teeth. This was my first try at sharpening, so things went rather slow. I did some more research in the old manuals and determined that I wanted only the very tips set. I had acquired several different styles of saw sets and finally took one apart and reground the piston part that actually does the bending (setting). I quickly found out I had a bit too much set and the set was not even (each tooth bent over the same amount).

Needless to say what I thought would be a simple precise operation. WASN'T. So, I did what I always do when I ran across a problem blacksmithing. I stopped all operations and to the recliner and started reading a western, all the time the wheels and gears between my ears were pondering the problem of the saw. The gears and wheels determined that I had left out an important step in my haste to improve things. I had totally ignored the burr problem.

After careful consideration and some more research in the old manuals I really didn't care for the idea of stoning away the burrs afterward. I didn't want to remove the set for fear of creating stresses from cold bending that would possibly make the teeth break off. End result was I found a small brass wire wheel with an arbor that you use in a hand drill and wire brushed the burrs away as I figured the brass wire wheel would have less of a chance of damaging the sharp cutting edges of the teeth, ( now I stone the teeth sides before setting).

Next problem (more pondering while reading the western) was what to do about the uneven set distance. While fighting to seperate 2 pages that were somehow stuck together the brain kicked in. Thin paper was the answer, that and the bench vise with the smooth jaws that came from a school auction. 1. paper is a uniform thickness. 2. the smooth jaws of the vise would press the tooth set back evenly.

So down to the wood shop in the basement with several pieces of typing paper, ( no puter yet) and an untried idea. first cut the paper to just a bit wider than the vise jaws, fold it in the middle and then fold the two ends over a bit to keep it positioned in the vise jaws. Ah a roll of masking tape, so the ends were taped to the curved part of the jaws. Reasoning, paper is soft, the vise jaws are hard, squeezing the teeth between the hard paper lined jaws of the vise, the teeth points will cut or squeeze into the soft paper and the paper with not crush between the body of the saw and the vise jaws leaving a minimal even set to the teeth. Making sure that I moved the saw thru the vise jaws to squeeze all the teeth, many squeezes later, mission accomplished.

Time for show and tell. Place board in wood vise and make a cut. Amazing result, holding saw loose in hand and not trying to hold it to the line, it cut a perfectly straight kerf on its own and with little effort and quite deep on the first stroke. Unbelievable success. Just couldn't resist the temptation, so trials on different woods proceeded, pine, oak, maple, walnut, and hedge. Same results, little effort produced straight cuts with a narrow smooth kerf and exceptionally fast cutting time wise. Ah hah, a procedure is born.

End result was saw shop did retoothing sans setting and I did the filing and setting, and I have never looked back.

Sorry for the long rambling post, couldn't sleep so what better way to pass the time.

Tradition means handing on all that is of value to next generation.

[Phillip Pattee]

This has been a very informative thread. Harry, thank you for telling us about using the vise and paper to set teeth! There is a wealth of information in that post.

Would I be wrong if I concluded from all of the posts here that a "good" saw is one with a comfortable handle, and good steel, with a user who has solid know-how to properly sharpen and set teeth?

[Marcus Ward]

I'd say you're right. If you can sharpen it it'll perform. I think I may try to remove some set from the teeth on my saw, see how it goes.

Harry, thanks for the informative post and the info (another thread) about the hemlock fir vs yellow pine. I appreciate it.

[John Guarino]

Would I be wrong if I concluded from all of the posts here that a "good" saw is one with a comfortable handle, and good steel, with a user who has solid know-how to properly sharpen and set teeth?


Ditto what Marcus said, not wrong at all.

Now you're gonna start to think about peg tooth, pug tooth, rip, XC, lotta set vs. no set, flat vs. taper ground,... it might seem endless. But the bottom line is, in almost any situation, you can choose and prepare a saw to cut like Harry's.

I'll suggest you fix one up for the species and thickness of wood you saw most often. Once you get it going like Harry's in this first case, you'll add different sawing jobs to your repertoire. You will want/need a number of saws. That's the slippery slope.

There's one for planes. There's one for chisels. There's one for...