Yep, another ROS/vacuum question

[Joe Mioux]

Art, I PM'd you. Thanks.

Joe, that's the setup I have now and want to improve the dust removal and filtration. I'd pick the CT 22 because of the HEPA filters. I think I'm starting to want one of those Festool vacs too.

-Dave

I used to think a Hepa filter was a huge deal in my garage/shop, but now I think it is overkill. If you want to improve the air quality, wouldn't an Oneida "mini cyclone" attached to your Shop Vac be just as effective?

AFter all, how many times have we heard that a cyclone is the machine that will save us from breathing in all that harmfull dust.

Joe

[John Hain]

I actually checked with Bill Pentz before buying my gear.

I sucked it up and got the Festool 150/3 and paired it with the Porter Cable 10 gallon vacuum. I waited until the Porter Cable was on sale at Amazon and got it for a bit over $200.

The vac specs are:

• Air Volume Cu. Ft./Min.: 114
• Vacuum Water Lift/In.: 94

Bill Pentz thought the numbers sounded very good and the filtration efficiency provided very nice air quality during sanding.

Although I think you can't substitute for the Festool ROS to get optimal air quality, you CAN substitute the Porter Cable Vac for the Festool and save about $300.

[Prashun Patel]

I second the minicyclone preseparator, but WITH the hepa on the svac. Without the presep, you'll be cleaning the filter more times than you're gonna like if yr sanding a lot.

I hear the Fein is the best shopvac cum dust collector.

[Rick Thom]

I used to think a Hepa filter was a huge deal in my garage/shop, but now I think it is overkill. If you want to improve the air quality, wouldn't an Oneida "mini cyclone" attached to your Shop Vac be just as effective?

AFter all, how many times have we heard that a cyclone is the machine that will save us from breathing in all that harmfull dust.

Joe

I use an Oneida 'dust deputy' in front of my 15 year old C-man variable speed wet/dry shop vac for all my dry shop vac efforts including PC sander, Ridgid oscillating spindle/belt sander, router and general vacuuming. Out of conscience I bought and installed a HEPA filter in the vac last fall. There is virtually nothing that passes the dd; haven't ever had to clean out the vac in over a year because there's no dust in it and the filter looks like new. The HD 5 gal painters pail I use under the dd has been emptied quite a few times and typically contains hard packed dust in the bottom.
I use a 10' 1 1/2" vac hose in front of the dd and 2 1/2" oem hose from the dd to shop vac. This combination seems to work well. The dd doesn't seem to inject any restriction or loss in the system.
No, this isn't an advertisement for Oneida. btw, it also handles dry wall dust as well. Only drawback is that some might say it's a bit pricey at $100-150, but worth it to me.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Hi Dave,

I was looking for the article and discovered that my memory is bad. The article to which I was referring was actually published in Fine Woodworking Magazine, July/August 2006. That article did, in fact, measure the percentage of dust collected by each of the units rated.

There was some discussion of this article when it was published. IMHO, the test was flawed on the results for the Festool sander. The tester did not use Festool sandpaper, which has a hole in the center. That hole aids significantly in dust collection and reduces wear on the paper because of the superior dust collection. I'm sure Bosch makes a fine sander. But, there are way too many folks, including me, that think the Festool sander and vac setup is the best regardless of what that article concluded.

To address the OP's post - given the criteria you listed, I think the Festool sander/vac combo is your answer. If, and that's a big if, you find you "need" a more aggressive sander than the 150/3, the Rotex is likely the answer.

[David Miller]

I have a cyclone for my main dust collection system (no ductwork till the end of the month). My understanding is the cyclone removes the larger particles more efficiently and less so as you go down in size. That's why there is a filter on the outlet.

I have looked at the dust deputy and clearvue CV06 and really like the idea. But I don't think it would take care of the really fine stuff. But for the cost of the CT 22 I could get a mini-cyclone and a new shop vac with some change to spare. Hmmm......

Michael, thanks for the links. I'm checking them out now.

The porter-cable vacuum is now on my radar.

Thanks again everyone,
Dave

[Gary Sostrin]

I have the same ridgid vac as mentioned earlier and it is pretty quiet unlike my former craftsman screamer. I read else where when hooking up a sander you may need to decrease the suction so I bought this at lowes( http//www.shopvac.com/detail.asp?id=432) . I will try it this weekened with my old dewalt sander (DW423) which kicks out dust into the air. Any comments about this addition?

Gary

[Jeff Norri]

Sure thing. Not too exciting, really. Started with an old B&D but it shook my arm off. A Ryobi 1/4 sheet which spit dust everywhere. Then a PC 1/4 sheet and a PC ROS hooked to a shop vac. Some better, but the vac was too loud for my taste. Then bought the CT-22 and hooked to the PC Sanders. Huge improvement in dust collection! Didn't know what I had been missing!

But when I wanted to refinish a large entertainment center, the PC sander wore me out. It took forever. That's when I took the plunge and bought the Rotex 150. Can't be beat for aggressive stock/finish removal and virtually dust free. I would recommend the Rotex as an all-around sander. In rotary mode it hogs off the material and in ROS mode it gives a nice finish at higher grits. I later got the 150/3 for the shorter throw (3 mm vs 7 mm) which is a better finishing tool. After that, it went downhill fast. Added the DX93 for detail work and corner sanding and then the LS130 for profile sanding.

As you say, it can be difficult to find one sander to do everything.

The dust collection combo with Festo is the best I've ever experienced.

Hmmm I about to go down your road. I have a PC ROS and Shop vac with Heppa Filter. To be honest I can't complain about dust with this set up, but I would like a more aggressive sander. I tried the rotex and really liked it but new it would not be the only sander in my shop as it was not fine enough. Do you find the ETS to leave a finer finish then your ETS?

If I could just get this sanding thing down, my woodworking would be much faster.

[Jeff Norri]

I'm not familiar with the Rigid shop vac you're considering, but generally shops vacs have two shortcomings compared to the dust extractors like the Festool and the Fein.

1) Shops vacs generally have a large-diameter hose which is more rigid, and it inhibits how you can move the sander around.

2) Shop vacs often lack the tool-triggered feature. For sanding, it is great to be able to turn the sander on and off, and that action turns the vacuum on or off.

If you're only going to use this dust extractor with a sander, you can buy a smaller unit with less dust capacity, and that will save you money over a bigger unit with more dust capacity.

If you already have a shop vac you can use a Festool hose with it, great combo. You can get the on off switch set up seperatly. Of course if you buying new, why modifiy everything - just get the vac that has what you want.

[Jim Eller]

I'm another Oneida Dust Deputy fan. http://www.dustdeputy.com/

I did the cyclone only thing and it works great with a small/cheap Lowes Shop-Vac. The dust goes in the plastic bucket and the Shop-Vac keeps suckin' without pluggin' the filter every five minutes.

Jim

[David Miller]

Had to take a break from sanders and vacuums and get some sleep!

Based on everyones comments I've refined my ideas for my sander/vacuum setup. I'm still considering the Ridgid vac with and without a mini-cyclone. I've also included the Fein vacuum in my list. I had discounted it because once you added the better filters it wasn't far from the CT-22's price. I figured that if I was going to spend that much I might as well go with the Festool. But I've discovered that with the use of a cheap bolt I can use a Cleanstream filter designed for a Craftsman shop-vac.

The Fein sits in the middle. Great vacuum with good features at a lower price than the Festool. Does it have some sort of vacuum control? I'm interested to hear some comments from Fein users.

Gary, let us know how that air control works.

Also interested in more comments on the dust collection of the Bosch and Metabo sanders. The Metabo has dual modes much like the Rotex but at a much cheaper price point. How about pairing it with a Fein vacuum?

Thanks,
Dave

[Gary Keedwell]

Hmmm I about to go down your road. I have a PC ROS and Shop vac with Heppa Filter. To be honest I can't complain about dust with this set up, but I would like a more aggressive sander. I tried the rotex and really liked it but new it would not be the only sander in my shop as it was not fine enough. Do you find the ETS to leave a finer finish then your ETS?

If I could just get this sanding thing down, my woodworking would be much faster.

I have the 150/3 and really like it but it is a finish sander and is not meant to get you from the rough by itself. I have had to get my Makita ROS out of moth balls because it is alot more aggressive. Only problem with that is I have my dust problem back again. Oh well, I'm only a hobbyist so my problem is small. Glad I don't have to sand every day.
Gary

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Some thoughts . . .

The FWW review of sanders gives nod to the Bosch 1295VS. I have 3 of those and they are great. HOWEVER, this is a comparison of 5" sanders. The Festool 150/3 and 150/5 are both 6" sanders and considered quite superior to the 5" Festool. The review did look at dust collection both with unspecified vac and with dust bag attachment.

I use a Festool Midi vac. Right combo of size, performance, features for me. It was combined with my Domino which gives you a decent discount. Buy the vac with a tool for savings. The Midi has great filtration. I changed the bag twice on mine. The inside of the machine is compleatly free of dust to the naked eye. The second time I replaced the bag I pulled the filter out to check it / blow it out. There was nothing there. Really impressed. The Midi also includes the hose garage built in. That is actually a cool feature. I do not use the systainer stacking system on the top, though I did check it out when I got the vac and Domino. I guess it is cool if you want to go that way. I sold my systainers as I just don't like digging tools out of boxes. Stacking the systainers on top of the vac would also inhibit the hose garage. You want to keep the hose put away. You dont want to step on a $80 hose.

The Bosch 1295s work great. Dust collection is wonderful with $4 Bosch adapter. The Festool Midi connection hooks up very well to the adapter with no modification. The 1295 has a fair amount of vibration which is why I started looking at other sanders. Again, for $70 the 1295 is just awesome.

The Festool 150/3 is a great sander. Much lower vibration. As noted it is a 6" sander. Also as noted it is a finishing sander. It is not aggressive. It produces a fine surface. The 150/5 would be slightly more aggressive. I do not own the 150/5. BTW the number after 150 referes to the amount of travel of the pad, thus the aggressiveness of the sander. The dust collection is good on the the 150/3 but, IMHO not amazing. If I never saw any dust that would be amazing. But when you start working on edges, etc you will still see dust. However, collecting that dust would require so much suction from the vac that the sander would stick to flat surfaces. The 150/3 has a nice weight and balance to it. I use Norton 3x sanding supplies which have the Festool hole pattern. It works as well, if not better than the Festool branded papers, IMHO.

The Bosch 3727DEVS is a great 6" sander. I ordred one from Amazon a few weeks ago for around $80. This gave a discount on accessories and there was a buy 4 for the price of 3 thing going on for the Mirka Gold sandpaper, so I loaded up. The same $4 adapter that fits on the 1295 will fit on this thus the vac connection was again secure and almost like it was made for the machine. The 3727 design looks incredibly similar to the 150/3! I guess there is not much room for creativity in a 6" ROS. Anyway, the Bosch does have a handle you can put on the front for a little more control. The Bosch is slightly less comfortable, I would rather use the 150/3 for 8 hours per day. But a few hours per week is likely a toss up. Just to be anal I bought 120/180/220 grits of Norton 3X to match the stuff I was using on the Festool. I put some Sapele through my dual drum sander and worked through the progressions 120/180/220 using the Bosch on one side and the Festool on the other. I could not tell a difference. Neither had any swirl marks or machining marks visible to the naked eye. Both left a soft pleasing surface. I used sapele as it machines well and will show machining marks pretty easily. I had a very small sample of folks (4) look at the board, touch the board, etc. All 4 picked the Bosch finsihed surface. I don't know why and my sample size does suck. As I stated I could not tell a difference. I have noted that the Bosch is slightly harder to control than the Festool. I did have an epiphany the other day that this could be because the Bosch may be creating too much suction and sucking the ROS to the surface. I can hear more air moving through the Bosch than the Festool. The Festool shoots air out of the middle hole which would help the ROS not stick to the material due to suction through the other holes. The Bosch does not have this middle hole and my vac suction is at 100% so that could be the problem. My new heat pump / AC is not installed in my shop yet, so I haven't braved the cold to test this theory.

Pricing . . . . I could buy 3 of the Bosch units for the sale price for 1 Festool. If I had $260 and the option to buy either 3 Bosch sanders or 1 Festool I'd have to get the Bosch sanders so I wouldnt have to change grits! LOL! They are both fine sanders and you can't go wrong with either.

[David Miller]

Jeffrey, thanks for sharing your experience with the Bosch and Festool combinations.

When you say the Festool is more comfortable than the Bosch, are you referring to vibration? Or maybe ergonomics?

Do you think if you turned the vacuum down when using the Bosch that it would perform similarly to the Festool in terms of dust collection and control?

Thanks again,
Dave

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Jeffrey, thanks for sharing your experience with the Bosch and Festool combinations.

When you say the Festool is more comfortable than the Bosch, are you referring to vibration? Or maybe ergonomics?

Do you think if you turned the vacuum down when using the Bosch that it would perform similarly to the Festool in terms of dust collection and control?

Thanks again,
Dave

Both ergonomics and vibration are better on the Festool. It is lighter and smaller than the Bosch, though the Bosch does have the front handle.

I will try to get out to the shop shortly and check my Bosch theory. I think Bosch DC would still be great even reducing the suction.

I'll let you know.