Plane learning

[Zahid Naqvi]

When I got started in woodworking a few years ago I was limited by budget and experience/skill. But I didn't have any pressure to make anything, so I just purchased an old Stanley and completely took it apart. Cleaning and fettling each and every part. The first plane didn't come out perfect, although it was still quite good and I still use it. By the time I purchased the second Stanley (a #5) I knew exactly what each part did and how to tune all aspects of a plane due to the time I had spent with the first one.

I have also been fortunate to use the LV bevel up jack and I found it to be an excellent plane as well. There are pros and cons both way. Money not withstanding, if you go the LN way you will get an excellent tool which will be ready to go out of the box with minimum fettling/tuning. OTOH if you go the vintage Stanley route, you get to dissect a plane and completely understand the innerworkings due to the need to get it fine tuned. I enjoyed the process of rehabbing old planes so I'd probably do it again even if I could afford to buy LNs. I'd probably still buy the LV BU jack though.

[Mike Heidrick]

OK, I had a couple of minutes between family today and rounded up the planes in the shop.

Looks like:
Two Stanley Bailey No 4s
A Defiance Stanley
A Miller Falls 1822520
A Stanley Bedrock 606 with corrugated sole
Two black stanley block planes
One Blue and orange block plane

The Miller falls is slightly larger than the No4 and is definately heavier built. I need to read up on planes (thanks for the link above!!). Do I measure the sole (bottom) to know the number of plane that it is?

[Randal Stevenson]

OK, I had a couple of minutes between family today and rounded up the planes in the shop.

Looks like:
Two Stanley Bailey No 4s
A Defiance Stanley
A Miller Falls 1822520
A Stanley Bedrock 606 with corrugated sole
Two black stanley block planes
One Blue and orange block plane

The Miller falls is slightly larger than the No4 and is definately heavier built. I need to read up on planes (thanks for the link above!!). Do I measure the sole (bottom) to know the number of plane that it is?

Yes, measure the sole, as googling that number, shows it to be the patent number on at least two of their planes (18" number 6 comparable, and 24" number 8 comparable).
The Defiance isn't considered a good plane, and it is what I started out with (inherited). I did consider turning it into a scrub plane (never found any of those locally), until I got my LN 40 1/2 (birthday present). No mentor locally (most of the woodworkers I have known are gone, now the people I know are just diy'ers), which is why I brought up the used plane market and people like Clint Jones. Since you have two 4's, that would give you better ability to practice, I am still a bit nervous, as I can see myself overdoing it. Thanks all for the help and thanks for the original question!

[Tim Sproul]

..... the bronze Lie Nielsen #4 ..... Is this a good one to start off with?

I'd ask what you want a hand plane to do? You have the entire complement of power tools to build furniture so what is it that you're looking for a hand plane to do? The #4 will be good if you're looking to do surface prep by planing rather than sanding. You can also use a short plane like a #4 to clean up minor machining marks such as those from the tablesaw. Longer planes will provide different functions as well as some overlapping functions. Small little hand-sized block planes will offer something else too. Just like with power tools, different hand tools are best suited to different tasks.

[Mike Cutler]

OK, I had a couple of minutes between family today and rounded up the planes in the shop.

Looks like:
Two Stanley Bailey No 4s
A Defiance Stanley
A Miller Falls 1822520
A Stanley Bedrock 606 with corrugated sole
Two black stanley block planes
One Blue and orange block plane

The Miller falls is slightly larger than the No4 and is definately heavier built. I need to read up on planes (thanks for the link above!!). Do I measure the sole (bottom) to know the number of plane that it is?

Wow! You already have nice start to a plane collection. I think this was a stealth type gloat after all.

Here are some links to put you on your way to info overload.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDo...DEX_How_To.htm

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5867

In the 5th response to Julie's thread on tutorials you will find a host of articles by Bob Smalser on many things handtool related. Excellent tutorials on handplane restoration.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66858

and of course.

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

[Steve Wargo]

I must respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks a LN is going to do a better job than a well tuned vintage stanley. Save your money and buy a refurb'd old stanley and learn to use it. I paid 12$ for my No. 4 1/2. I'll take the 288$ I saved on the LN and spend it on... more tools! .

I will respectfully disagree with Marcus on this one. The LN is certainly a more versatile plane than a vintage #4. It weighs more, is built to be more durable, has an adjustable frog (very important in a finish smoother), has the ability to add a high angle frog and comes with a much thicker chipbreaker and iron. All of these make the plane far superior to the vintage Stanley #4. Now if you're talking about a Stanley 604 then you only have the advantages of the thicker iron and chipbreaker. But by the time you purchase a 604 and add the latter two items you're about at a wash in cost. There is no doubt that the Stanley will do a great job on many of our woods, but try smoothing cocobolo or ebony with a stock Stanley tuned to the hilt. It just isn't happening.

Mike, There is no doubt that the cheaper way to go is just tune what you have. You certainly do have a good start in you planes. I would probably take an hour to see how it goes. Sharpen, flatten, clean and test. IF thing don't go well, you can look for someone local who may be willing to help or just get the LN. I've never, ever talked to any one who was sorry for purchasing an LN Smoother.

[Marcus Ward]

It weighs more, is built to be more durable,

Most of my planes are ~100 years old. Beyond that level of durability it's really academic, isn't it?

has an adjustable frog (very important in a finish smoother),

The regular #4 has an adjustable frog too. It just requires an extra step. Frankly I have several and have them all adjusted differently. Easier than taking the time to readjust, and at the price of stanley #4s I can afford to have several.

has the ability to add a high angle frog and

Just put a 10 deg back bevel on one of the aforementioned #4s and voila, high angle! Amazing. And since I can afford to have several, I don't have to swap frogs or blades for certain woods.

comes with a much thickercomes with a much thicker chipbreaker and iron.

Hock blades and chipbreakers are quite affordable. At the going rate for a good #4 I could buy 4, put hock blades and chipbreakers in them all for the price of a LN.

All of these make the plane far superior to the vintage Stanley #4.

I'm not sure I'd say far superior. Maybe a little superior.

but try smoothing cocobolo or ebony with a stock Stanley tuned to the hilt. It just isn't happening.

I'll keep that in mind next time I'm planing an ebony fretboard with a vintage stanley.

I've never, ever talked to any one who was sorry for purchasing an LN Smoother.

Heck no! They're friggin awesome! Besides, admitting you didn't like it would cause lethal levels of cognitive dissonance.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. LN makes incredible goods, I'm just contrarian and trying to present the other side of the picture.

[Steve Wargo]

There is an abundance of Stanley #4 planes available in the wild because there were so many of them made. It was a common tool in most households 90 years ago. The reason so many of them have survived is because there were so many to begin with, and were used for menial tasks like planing a door so it wouldn't stick. I've seen many of them with chipped mouths, side, lever caps and some even broken in half. They are not more durable than Ductile Steel or Bronze. I'm aware that Stanley #4 has an adjustable frog but there was again a reason that Stanley Produced the Bedrock Series of planes. Perhaps I should have stated that it is much easier to adjust an LN plane than a Stanley #4. A 10 degree back bevel does make the approach angle of a 45deg plane higher... but it also causes wear on the back bevel during the pull stroke of the plane. Now you have two angles to touch up and often the back bevel requires more work than the primary bevel do to nicks in the edge created by the thinner edge of the iron. Back bevels wear harder and require more maintenance and are probably not a real good idea for newbies. Hock blades and chipbreakers are affordable and certainly a good way to upgrade standard Stanley planes. But still run you $70 to $90 with shipping or tax and that adds up quick. To say a LN #4 is a little better is an understatement at best. For a newbie I think that the LN's are a great way to go. Some guys simply don't have the time or knowledge to fettle planes and make them work. This is one of the contributing factors to people shyng away from hand planes. If you can take the learning curve out of the equation then I'm all for it. As far as the ebony fretboard goes... I'd love to see pics. I rarely have luck with ebony, but I'm just a hack. I agree that we will agree to disagree on this one Marcus.

[Eddie Darby]

I must also disagree that you'll have to fettle them again. Most of the ones I've bought, fettled ages ago by their original owners, are still flat and near perfect. Your mileage may vary but the idea that nothing but a LN will do is just rationalization for purchasing a ridiculously expensive hand tool. If you've got the cash, great, if not, there are cheaper equivalents.

I am glad that you didn't have to fettle your planes, but others have, and unless there is a way to be able to pick a stable plane over one that is still settling, then the possibility of future work exists. I have had to do this to planes that I have owned, twice in some cases.

I guess it comes down to how many planes do you want to own. Some people would enjoy owning several planes of the same type. Most people do not start out owning the top level tools, but if they get past the potholes and bumps, they usually end-up owning them.

It usually takes, for some people, a little while to learn to "Buy the Best and Forget the Rest." While others prefer to have less than the best. It does not matter in the long run, as the only thing that changes for someone who finally decides to own the top tools is the total amount of money they spent getting there. But hey, where do some of those tools that are well fettled on EBay come from?

As for "ridiculously expensive" I think you would have to agree that what is expensive to one person, maybe cheap to another.
I would say that unless you want to prove that all Holtey plane owners are somehow missing a marble or two, each person has to decide what is the best route for them personally to take based on who they are and what they want.

Let me see if I can find a Holtey on EBay?

[Marcus Ward]

It usually takes, for some people, a little while to learn to "Buy the Best and Forget the Rest."

It's kind of poor to see the sorts of attitudes prominent in the powertool forum invading this one. The only question worth a squirt is: are you doing good woodworking? Are you practicing the craft? Who cares how you got there. Camera wankers are the same way. They ignore the images produced in favor of the camera brand. :\

[Eddie Darby]

In a pinch, I would not hesitate to put a back bevel on a bench plane blade to get the job done, but when you think ahead, a high angle frog makes a lot of sense.

Cost of a 4 1/2 blade from LN $45, cost of high angle frog from LN $75.
So for $30 more I can get the performance of two planes from one plane, instead of having two blades. Not going to have to break the ol piggy bank to do that.
Want to make that three planes? Go ahead and get the 55* frog while you're at it.

All you need is one blade.
I don't want to waste my time putting back bevels onto plane blades, and then taking them off. I also don't want the waste of metal and abrasives doing it.

I guess it depends on whether you want to work wood or fool around with blades?

At the very least it is nice to have this option in the future to pursue if you decide to not do it right off the bat!

[Eddie Darby]

It's kind of poor to see the sorts of attitudes prominent in the powertool forum invading this one. The only question worth a squirt is: are you doing good woodworking? Are you practicing the craft? Who cares how you got there. Camera wankers are the same way. They ignore the images produced in favor of the camera brand. :\

Are you trying to say "Don't buy the best." ? LOL

Have you had a change of heart?

[Marcus Ward]

I just want the new guys to know the cheap seats are pretty nice too. I'd hate for someone to get the impression you can't even start using handtools for less than several hundred dollars. It might keep some promising young Tage Frid from ever giving it a shot. This elitest baloney leaves me ill.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Just a point of warning guys. I realize that many of the latter comments in this thread are done in fun and in jest with tongue in check, but please be careful. Particularly when emoticaons aren't used, things can be taken the wrong way and folks can get offended. Please watch how you word things, and if your're going to take a swipe at someone, adding one of the funny faces helps let folks know that you're yanking their chain. Example to follow.

Well Mr. Stutz, as a qualified medical professional you should know enough to avoid the addiction. The "blame" is yours for dropping by and letting me entice you. Merry Christmas from your friendly neighborhood pusher.

[Mike Cutler]

I just want the new guys to know the cheap seats are pretty nice too. I'd hate for someone to get the impression you can't even start using handtools for less than several hundred dollars. It might keep some promising young Tage Frid from ever giving it a shot. This elitest baloney leaves me ill.

Marcus.

For my end, I understand exactly where you're coming from. My answers though were restricted to the parameters defined in the OP's ( Mike's) initial opening thread concerning the percieved and accepted quality of the LN #4. (with some links included in a subsequent post to help with his other planes)

Sometimes I'm not sure which is more intimidating to someone starting out, or relearning handtools. The price of an LN, or a LV, or the discussions on the care and tuning of a handplane.
Elitism can exist on either side of the debte. Whether it's having the $$$$ to spend on a new LN, or the mastery of the seemingly arcane field of handtools,their care, and use. Both have their own aura of snobbery that can be exercised.
Add in the confusion of sharpening, and all of the different ways that can be done, along with the expense that can be incurred with just sharpening equipment. It can get daunting, quickly. It becomes much easier to let LN and LV hook you up, so to speak, with a plane that is ready to go right out of the box with a lifetime warranty, and a return policy. No stones to purchase, no Tormek grinders, No granite plates and reams of sandpaper, no special jigs to set angles. Just take it out of the box and use it. There's nothing wrong with purchasing confidence and peace of mind.

Inevitably though, all planes will require maintenance, it's inescapable.( unless the plane is never used) Be it one of my flea market specials, a LN, or a Holtey. They all require care. That's why I still believe a person needs to eventually understand how a plane works, and how to tune one. Inexpensive planes are good for learning this on, and having around for jobs you wouldn't want to use a high $$ plane on.

I enjoy using my LN's. They're a high quality product for the money. I also enjoy the personal satisfaction associated with using my fleamarket "frankenplanes". Knowing that I took a collection of parts and made them into functioning tools is very gratifying. Whatthe heck,, it's ego boosting too.
In the end the wood doesn't care the price of the plane,the pedigree of the steel, or what country it came from. It's a blade fixed in a geometric relationship to a solid plane yet to be defined. No matter which route a person takes to accomplish the task.The end result is hopefully the same.
Sorry for the ramble. Just my thoughts on the subject.