New shop - need advice!!!!!!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

I am in the process of trying to design and build a new shop that will be primarily used for ww but occasionally might pull a vehicle into it for minor maintenance. After breaking my back 3 years ago, I found that ww is one thing that I enjoy doing and can do standing for excercise and therapy. I have my heart set on radiant floor heating but may have to concede it adds too much to the initial construction costs. As I live in north central Idaho I have to heat the shop or not use it 4-5 months of the year. I am open to suggestions and value the opinions of the members here.

Question 1: What size of shop would you suggest for a hobbiest? I am considering 24X24 with 10 ft. ceilings.

Question 2: Would you suggest a finishing room within the shop and if so, what size? and how would you heat it? I am considering an 8'X8' finishing room. If I use radiant floor heating, this finishing room would be a separate zone and thermostat.

Your opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Ken

[Dave Richards]

Ken, I know the cost of radiant in floor heat looks pretty high but I think it will be the best investment you make in your shop. With a warm floor, you'll be more comfortable even with a lower air temp. Your feet will appreciate it, too. You are less likely to have condensation because you won't be warming cold concrete. The temp will remain more stable and if you have a power failure that prevents the heater from running, the thermal mass of the concrete will help to keep the shop temp from dropping rapidly.

Also, you won't have air currents blowing dust around like forced air does.

Zoning is a great idea and easy to do with radiant heat. I would do a separate finishing room and do something with a filter blower to apply positive pressure to prevent sawdust from coming into the room.

[John Weber]

Ken,

Congrats, 24'x24' is good, lots bigger then mine, but I would go as big as you can. Not sure about a finishing room, a 24x24 shop seems a bit small for a finishing room. As for heat, I would try to swing the radiant floor heat. It's the tops for a shop. I use electric baseboard to heat to about 48 degrees, makes the shop very workable in winter and keeps the rust down. Also glue and other chemicals don't freeze. For a finishing room, you need to heat closer to room temp for most finishes.

John

[Jack Diemer]

Make it bigger. No matter what size shop you have or build, someday you will want to make it bigger.

[Perry Schmidt]

Me being a garage shop person, I have no 'experience' as to what size shop. Sorry. Just very envious

But I do have a question/consideration for the radiant heat. If you are planning on driving/parking a car in the shop, will the weight of the car cause any long term problems w/ the radiant coils in the concrete?? Do you have to do anything special when installing the radiant heat in the car area?

Perry

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Ken. After I retired from TI we decided to move out in the country. We designed our own house and had an architect draw it up. Included was a separate building for use as a shop, finishing room, and ham radio shack. Behind, but attached is a 2 car garage. So here are my thoughts on the subject.

1) My shop is 25x25 on the slab, it should be bigger. I too thought it would be plenty big, but it is not. I should have made it at least 25x30. When you get several pieces of heavy equipment, you need room to spread it out, not cart it around.

2) I put an 8"x8" trench down the middle of the concrete floor for primarily 6" PVC pipe as part of the dust collection plumbing. It also has electricity, and I am considering running some compressed air along it. It is covered with 3/16 diamond plate cut in various lengths to give some flexibility when running dust collection pipe to the big iron.

3) I have 8 48" fluorescent fixtures on a 10' ceiling. I bought bulbs with a high color temp (>5000K), and CRI of 90.

4) Heating is a heat pump(no natural gas near us) that was professionally designed and installed by the same company that did the geothermal system for the house. Extra filters were included in the system.

5) Insulation, there is no such thing as too much!. WE built our house and shop using Structural Insulated Panels, SIP, that are 8" thick and have an R-30 rating. All ceilings have at least R-40 fiber glass. i used ventilated soffit panels, and ridge vents for year-round ventilation. You must keep the insulation dry, or it wont work.

6) If you are considering an overhead garage door for the shop. I highly recommend the Overhead Door Co. top of the line units with an R-17 rating. We have two on the garage attached to the house, they face south. In the summer, when it is 105 outside with the sun shinning on them, the inside panels are just barely warm. That is a real door!

7) Electrical. Like insulation you can't have too much. I had a separate 200 amp service installed with its own meter. I have 2 20A 220v outlets on each wall, a 30A 220 outlet in the floor trench for a cabinet saw, and a 30A 22 outlet where the dust collector will be situated. There are quad 120V outlets every 8' along all the walls. Each quad outlet has two duplex outlets each of which are on separate breakers.

8) Windows and doors. Get the good stuff. Yes, it will cost more now, but the top shelf will cost you less in the long run. Well insulated doors and windows are a must. I went with Marvin low-E windows, like the house, and Stanley insulated steel doors. Here again, in the summer with the sun shinning on the door, you can't hold your hand on the outside of the door, but the inside is nice a cool.

9) In my finishing room, it did not occur to me to have exhaust fans and make-up air vents installed when building. Don't make my mistake.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them...

BTW, did I mention good insulation?

[Larry Browning]

You mentioned that you had broken your back. With that in mind you might consider a pier & beam floor (floor joists with a crawl space). Now I know that you said you might want to pull the car in on occation, but those concrete floors are very tough on the old back. I'll bet you already have a garage for the car anyway. You can still have the radiant floor heat with this setup and it makes installing and modifying electrical and dust collection underneath a breeze. If you are wanting save on the installation cost of the heating consider using just 1 zone, it really simplifies the process. I have a 30X42 shop on pier & beam with radiant floor heat. I installed the heating system myself and it cost me around $2500 total including the boiler. I used a company called Radiant Floor Company. They are geared for the do it yourselfer and are very helpfull.
I wouldn't consider a finishing room in a shop the size you mentioned. Make it bigger, add the finish room and a toilet. You won't be sorry you did.

Larry

[Robert Ducharme]

I have an example of a shop posted earlier that is a little bigger than you are specifying but what you are looking for seems reasonable. There is my 1.4 cents worth.

Look at your budget and go as large as possible. Phase in the construction so maybe you can even go larger. Add things when funds are available.

Radiant flooring - more comfortable, cleaner, long term - cheaper. Agree with using Radiant Floor Company although some local plumbers may be able to assist where you need help. There is no impact of driving vehicles over it. I use it in my garage and have had no problems. I used overhead direct radient heat so if I am not in the shop I do not need to keep it heated. I just heat the finishing room or bathroom (where I keep liquids).

Definitely add a bathroom. The decision about the bathroom is how far away from the house are you? You can get small (electric) HW heaters to make washing hands more comfortable. Go a deep sink in addition to a normal hand sink (or the deep sink if only space for a single sink). If possible, add a shower. This is useful especially if you will be working vehicles and/or spill acid or something toxic on you or in your eyes. Can do a rinse faster and hopefully reduce the total damage. Useful also to keep a storage cabinet for extra clean clothes, etc.

Put in a finishing room with filters and explosion proof fans. Especially if you will be working on vehicles (maybe painting). This also identifies the size of room you may want. Put lights on the sides and top to reduce shadows.

I agree that you should have the bathroom, finishing room, and workshop all on different heating zones so that you do not have to heat all the areas the same. A little harder to avoid heating the main room if using radiant heat because want to avoid the tubes from freezing.

Definitely INSULATE - INSULATE - INSULATE - VENT - VENT - VENT.

Skylights or upper wall light panels are nice to reduce need for needing to light an area during the day.

I used metallic - halyide (spelling?) lighting - lights last longer and can be set up for better color. MUCH better than florescent.

Plan your electrical, air lines, and dust collection and run a 200 A service to the shop.

If going to have a vehicle in there, I would suggest painting the floor with epoxy paint (Home Depot has rusteolum for $89 per kit). This will make cleanup very nice.

10' ceilings seem a little low - especially if you end up with DC piping overhead, carrying boards vertically, .... I am not certain I agree with these being under the floor (although it does look nicer) in that it would seriously affect the ability to use the heat sink of the concrete for radiant heating.

Plan for intercom/phone/computer/refigerator and some why to know when intercom/phone is ringing when working with noisy tools.

When working quitely, don't forget the stereo. Can record sounds of woodworking and play it loud so your significant other will think you are doing something in the shop while you sneak off and go fishing or take a nap.

If you wish for more details, contact me with a PM and I will be happy to expound further.

[Mark Bachler]

My vote also goes for "as big as you can possibly afford". I just built a 28 x 40ft shop/ garage and I can see now that the truck will soon be sitting outside again. You can make up some height by going 2 or 3 courses of block off of your floor. This might be cheaper than buying 10 ft material & it will keep the siding up out of the snow. Pack insulation in the spaces in the block. I picked up a smaller outdoor wood fired boiler system w/ 2 school radiators sightly used for $425. Not as nice as radiant but close & cheaper. I'm using (9) 8' cold start high output fluorescent lights. Be sure to get insulated garage doors also. Being from northern Wisconsin I’m sure our weather patterns aren’t that different. Check online auctions for a spray booth. Thet go pretty cheap most of the time. It all boils down to $$$$$$$$ & what you plan to do with your shop. Hobby or making a living out of it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks, Thanks for all the input. It's greatly appreciated!

The LOML is older than I and could retire today. She came to me one day and volunteered to work an extra 2-3 years to pay for my shop. Thus we would retire simultaneously in the next couple of years.

I originally planned a 25'X32' shop and put it out for bid with me doing the interior finishing, electrical and insulation. The initial bid was 50% over my existing budget. Thus, I reduced the size to get it built this year. ( I don't think she'd voluntarily work for another 10 years and though I'm 12" taller and a 100 lbs. heavier.....I still can't seem to win a fight with her.......I think it's the hormones!)

I plan on 200 amp service with separate meter and will probably hold out for radiant floor heat. I am planning on 2X6 construction for insulation reasons and standard footing, wall and floor concrete foundation to allow for better insulation of the floor. The design that's caught my eye is 2" of foam around the outer 4' of the floor perimeter, 1" of foam around the next 4' of floor perimeter and leaving the center section of the floor uninsulated for thermal mass effect. Also there would be 2" foam vertically on the inside of the wall between the footing and the floor.

I currently don't anticipate ever spraying finishes and therefore thought an 8'X8' finishing room would satisify my finishing needs and allow me to control the heat to that room independently.

I plan on one insulated garage door , one insulated steel entry door and four insulated vinyl windows (3x4).

Thanks for the input! Any other ideas or suggestions would be welcomed!

Ken